Disenchanted at the Beach

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    • #8315
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Here is where I get to struggle with @Disenchanted’s questions. I want to keep them all in one place so we can more easily refer to them and keep track of them.

      He asks such great questions.

      Mentally I picture us on the Beach, sitting in very comfortable chairs about 30 feet from the edge of the water. Between us is a small table with glasses and a pitcher of perfect Margaritas that constantly stay at the right temperature. The sky is deep blue. The wind is fresh and on shore strong enough so there are no bugs. It is a perfect day. Come join us, there is always an extra chair and glass and the pitcher is bottomless.

    • #8316
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Land Ownership

      @Dis:

      Asks me:

      Yes that is definitely a monster essay! I’d like to ask you how do you relate the following two portions of Part 11 with your experiences with the ‘big guys’?

      The Creative Hyperdimensional Wisdom teaches that if man deems himself “owner of the land,” the Powers of Matter can emerge from the land and engulf him, “integrating him to the context and turning him into an object of the Gods”. Attachment to the land and the misguided belief of “freedom” and “peace” within the limits of property render man defenseless against the Power of Illusion of the Thought Center of Non-being. In such a state, man has even greater difficulty conceiving of the necessity to escape from the material prison because he is constantly struggling to preserve those feelings of “freedom” and “peace”. The same principle applies to nationalities and similar attachments to artificial or subjective constructs.

      I have not yet read all of LKJ 10,000 or so pages in this essay series but I can certainly offer answers and opinions on the issues presented in this quote. I have no idea, since I have not tried to find this quote in her essay, if this is coming from LKJ or is being channeled by her Cassiopeian source. I can’t tell from the quote but it seems to me to be from the channel source.

      I agree with the sentiment expressed in this quote. For me, one of the slippery slopes mankind can fall down on the way to the Lies of Modernity is the concept of owning the land. How can any person think of themselves to in a position of authority to ‘own’ part of Her body? To even think this is possible is, as the quote suggests, “integrating him to the context and turning him into an object of the Gods”. Since there are no gods, mankind would become an object of an artificial state of being. This is not a good thing at all and is part of what I call the Lies of Modernity. Who has created this artificial state of being and why? An object of whom would a man become if they believe it possible to own part of Her?

      This next statement; ‘

      Attachment to the land and the misguided belief of “freedom” and “peace” within the limits of property render man defenseless against the Power of Illusion of the Thought Center of Non-being

      ’, goes to the heart of my reason to create the essays to help connect a person to Nature, My Antidote. The process of owning something that can not be owned sets up the whole separation of mankind from his very Nature. What is called the ‘Thought Center of Non-being’, in this quote.

      There can not be peace or freedom while inside this artificial state of non-being. You can not stay separate from your true state of being and hope to stay sane. And I agree with the quote that then goes on to say that this same false and artificial state of non-being exists in any attachment to any artificial external constructs. Why I say that the Lies of Modernity are so huge and expansive now that it is impossible to live completely out from under their influence.

      What I do not agree with in this quote is the tone suggesting that this artificial condition is somehow a condition of being material. This gets back to this curious idea that some thinkers have that material is lower and bad while non-material is higher and good. This is simply not true. There is no objective difference at all in judgmental quality between the two states of being. Falsehood and lies can exist in either location. The whole issue here is the creation of the false sense of separation from your real spiritual being by creating an artificial state of being that separates you from Nature. This is non-being. This has nothing at all to do with being material and is not an intrinsic quality of being material. Being separate, being dual, is simply a lie. If you believe in this lie then you do so of your own ‘freedom’ and you must suffer the consequences of those beliefs.

      The Big Guys taught us to celebrate our physical lives. To focus our energies and awareness here while we are physical and to not try to separate ourselves from the physical. They were big believers in living smart aware physical lives full of fun and joy and seeking out experiences. That meant understanding what it meant to be a spiritual being inhabiting a physical body. There was never a hint of negativity expressed about being in the material. Quite the opposite.

      OtB

      • #8324
        DisenchantedDisenchanted
        Participant

        @ OtB

        Lots to think about here. As you well know “property rights” are a very big deal to some many in the current construct of the status quo system and specifically in the United States. I’m still struggling myself with giving up that concept. Is that concept not considered the cornerstone of the foundation of our Republic? Many are prepared to fight to the death over their ’40 acres’ of land/property. Do you see any possibilty of that concept dying out? I’m rather doubtful that the, as you say “lies of modernity,” will allow that to happen. I think the Christian religion plays a big part in that concept what with “God giving man dominion over the earth(and it’s flora and fauna).” Counteracting those beliefs are ‘gonna be a tough row to hoe’…

        "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

        • #8357
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          @Disenchanted::

          Oh Dis I agree with you. The Lies of Modernity are going to be very difficult to deal with until they cause the end or almost the end of humanity. But land ownership is an issue that points directly at the lies. I have worked some in Communist and socialist countries in which there is no land ownership allowed at all. There is a very different attitude about the relationship to real property and each person to the other. The common person seems much ‘softer’ and more compassionate toward each other: less dog eat dog, survival of the fittest selfish stuff. But the thing that is not different is the power structure. It is still very much a pyramid with those controlling land allocation and rental use at the very top of the power structure. The end result for the common person is the same: serfdom for most and power and privilege for a few.

          This is why I argue that all solutions inside the lie will not change a single thing for the common man. The cell is complete with regards to the philosophies required to enslave mankind. Talking about finding solutions between capitalism or socialism and liberal or conservative or red and blue are nonsense, these issues are all still inside the cell. In fact you could drop back to the Hobbs and Locke discussions and start to make the argument that the current impending failures of civilization is endemic in the nature of man.

          Except for one small factor: primitive, indigenous cultures could and did thrive for generations without the problems and issues that Modernity has. Not all of course, there were some that were just as horrible for the common person as Modernity, but enough examples to let us know that there are working models that can get around the issues of Modernity. It is very obvious that the winners in Modernity would never want people to know about this.

          OtB

      • #8327
        DisenchantedDisenchanted
        Participant

        @ OtB

        Wanted to separate this item from my other reply to this post…re:

        They were big believers in living smart aware physical lives full of fun and joy and seeking out experiences.

        But I’m guessing that they would frown upon the idea of acquiring material things/stacks of ‘money’, gold, silver(or lets just say earthly posessesions) as the ‘be all end all’ of our physical lives…Correct?

        "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

        • #8356
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          @Disenchanted:

          They would encourage you to search for happiness inside yourself but they would never tell you that these material things would not bring you happiness. They would smile at you, not frown, and ask you to think hard about what you are doing and to try to identify your own personal motives in your quest for material stuff. They always wanted you to enjoy yourself while physical but to know what that meant for you as a person. And we always knew that meant that we would be responsible for our own actions and would have to pay the cost of what ever it was we thought would make us happy.

          OtB

      • #8330
        ZenscreamerZenscreamer
        Participant

        Reading this section got me humming on the David Icke lines like this:

        Attachment to land (registered ownership, official residency ) as part of the Lies of Modernity is a function of legal personhood and hence mingled with corporate governmental structure.

        There are those that assert that persons who have been incorporated in that fashion are harnessed as subjects of the State (and whatever lies behind it) in the same fashion as serfs were tied to the land in the feudal system (although less transparently).

        The “freedom” and “peace” that are promised to the serfs by their overlords (“See! We keep the bandits away! We settle conflicts among neighbors!”) are a fool’s bargain, but have been accepted nonetheless. This lie keeps the average modern “running in place” to stay attached to their current place in the hierarchy of lies, based upon their place as given them by the overlords.

        I am intrigued by the possibility that that the energy (intent) of modern Western humans living within the bounds of certain cities has been focused by occult methods using symbols and architectural structures for particular purposes. If true, how would this play into the “war between the Aeons and the Archons” ?

        • #8355
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Hi Zenscreamer:

          Thank you so much for this comment and question.

          Does Icke really use the term ‘Lies of Modernity’? I’ve never read or listened to one minute of his work. I would give him credit for the term but I just stated using it a couple years ago myself.

          But he is completely right in his assessment of land ownership, as far as I am concerned. The social and institutional entities we allow to control the land have no authority to do so. The land is not theirs to control, it belongs to Her. Agreeing with their control over something they have usurped by falsehood is agreeing to be controlled under their system and agenda.

          I was reading today that the Iroquois nation did not allow land ownership. They allowed land use, and authorization for this land use followed matriarchal lineage but could be revoked by the tribal elders. There are other ways to deal with land ownership issues and that Indian group was around for hundreds of years.

          Now your question about symbols…………. this is a very interesting and difficult question for me. I hope I can give an answer that is understandable and clear.

          The short answer is ‘yes’, but probably not in the way you are thinking about the issue.

          Symbols are derivatives of derivatives of actual strength. All real strength comes from the conscious knowledge of and use of energy. If I truly know how to be strong; to properly know of and use energy in very powerful, even overwhelming ways, I do not need any symbols to represent that knowledge of strength inside myself. If I am actually not so powerful, just know a bit but want to make it seem like I am powerful, then I could concoct all sorts of symbols representing my power and try to get everyone to think I am powerful by posting all sorts of symbols. What ever the symbol is, it is still just a symbol, a derivative, and as such does not have any more power than someone wants to give it. A really powerful entity will just dismiss the symbol for exactly what it is: a derivative.

          In fact really powerful entities do not use any symbols or adornment at all. They know and understand the other side of what it means to use a symbol. Any symbol used creates an immediate set of limitations implicit in the understanding and rules associated with the symbol. Real power does not express any limitations, but then nor does it boast of its knowledge either by using a symbol.

          But if I, as a person in Modernity, give a symbol power then I am living, as you say, under the focus of that power, even though the symbol is nothing more than a symbol. The symbol has no more power than I am willing to give it.

          Second, physical structures and physical layout of cities does affect energy patterns and could be used to focus people’s intent. I am sure there is some of that going on. But for me, the energy patterns of the physical structures are not nearly as strong as the collective energy of the inhabitants of the city. And in most cases now the people are so lost and confused they barely have energy to project.

          Personally, I never allow anyone else’s symbols to gain any control over me and my search for experience in this universe. I disregard symbols and their alleged power and search for my own knowledge of the use of energy. Knowing of archetypes used in the creation of symbols is useful but my experience is that most who use symbols use symbols and not strength.

          I hope I am making sense. This issue of symbols and power and the real use of strength as power is a very important discussion and very complex.

          OtB


    • #8317
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      The Grail

      @Dis:

      Asks me to comment on the following quotes about the Grail:

      1- The emphasis on the fact that the Grail* is not an object that belongs to the material universe, which implies that the most significant corruption to all the Grail material through the influence of Christianity is precisely that identification of the Grail with any material object and, more specifically, with the chalice of the Last Supper. This will have to be regarded as a tactic to completely derail the seeker.

      And:

      *re: about “the Grail” she writes:

      we must also understand that if the Grail is a stone or other object, it is certainly not an earthly stone.

      Creative Hyperdimensional Wisdom suggests that the Grail is something that exists in what we can, today, understand as a more or less hyperdimensional realm.

      My teaching did not include anything specific about the ‘Grail” but later on I made some connections.
      I would completely agree with what she is saying about the ‘Grail’ being primarily a hyper-dimensional object. And that any attempt to focus the ‘Grail’ into a purely physical object, especially anything to do with the Christ drama is most definitely a lie meant to obscure and derail a seeker.

      I did not think about the Grail at all until a couple years ago when I was reading John Lamb Lash and heard him describe his ‘organic light’ as the Grail. It was like a million watt bulb went on inside me while I shouted “Yes, you are right!” His understanding is exactly the right description and also the reason for all the deceptions.

      I first saw the organic light when I was about 8 years old. I was not told what it was, it was clearly a very different substance and I was made to understand that it was very important. That was a physical event here on this earth.

      The next time I saw the organic light I was about 28, 20 years older. It was in an out of body trip. I was hanging in space with my teacher watching a group of Big Guys in their natural energetic form create this funny looking, thick, pearlescent ropy kind of light. They then cast this light down into a gas nebula of new stars. I was told that this light contained the general instructions to create conscious life, step by step, over as long a time period as was needed.

      This was long before I even heard about the Gnostic books and more than 25 years before I read JLL.
      But his information confirmed exactly with my experiences. The organic light creates conscious life from non-self-aware matter and also allows the conscious connection between physical consciousness and non-physical consciousness. It is vitally important to all life and the earth is filled up with it.

      To deny this story of the organic light or mis-direct it as the ‘Grail story’ is another part of the war between Aeons and Archons over control of mankind and the earth. The ‘grail’ is this symbolic cup made of conscious intentions, holding all life within its potential. It is our own personal connection back to Her. The Bad Guys will do anything to destroy our knowledge of it in their attempt to keep us separate from our true nature.

      Someday I really want to meet John Lash.

      OtB

      • #8325
        DisenchantedDisenchanted
        Participant

        Yes I too remember JLL’s reference to the “organic light.” I think that’s a very good concept of what “The Grail” really is.

        I’m wondering if that organic light is what “The Shining Ones” I’ve referenced before are giving out from within. Actually I think that’s exactly what it is.

        "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

        • #8354
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Hi @Disenchanted:

          For me, there is a distinct difference in the quality of the organic light from what I have seen and understand it to be and the light coming from the ‘Shining Ones’ when they normally appear physically. They appear with a bright slightly golden hue to them, in my experience. Organic light is very different. It is very pearlescent, almost sparkly in color and the quality of the light is that it is more of a substance than a light. It’s very difficult to explain the difference with words: glowing pearly colored milk perhaps.

          OtB

      • #8329
        ZenscreamerZenscreamer
        Participant

        Two things:

        One, OtB, I think you could do a whole thread or more on the “the war between Aeons and Archons” and keep us all rapt with attention.

        Two, on the subject of the Organic Light — the priestesses of the Eleusinian Mysteries would, at the height of their operations, merge themselves as a group with the Organic Light. The effect of such a simultaneous in-the-Now process must be profound. I have to confess that I have an ambition to experience this myself.

        RE: the Grail — I hav been holding the answers to the Grail questions in my mind, but once again I feel I am in a house of mirrors on this point. I am not at all certain that the male and female roles in this story are equivalent.

        • #8353
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Hi @Zenscreamer:

          I will create a new thread on the War and also on Dreams.

          I am sure that many of the old Gnostic and Pagan mysteries used combining with the organic light as part of their process. I know that John Lash now says he can call on it at will by using certain procedures he has developed/rediscovered. But I agree with you, it must be beyond words to combine with it in an ecstatic state. I would also certainly like to do that.

          If it helps in your personal reflections on the Grail question, there is a profound difference in the quality of being expressed between any of my Big Guy males or females. They are not parodies of a stereotype of maleness or femaleness, but just obviously different. Also, they always only create the organic light in matched pairs of male and female. In fact they never do anything serious except together as male and female pairs.

          OtB

    • #8318
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Linear Time

      @Dis:

      Asks me to comment on the following quote from LKJ:

       


      2- The definition of “linear time” as the flowing conscience of the Demiurge, that we could say helps us expand on the definition of the Control Matrix by implying that we, as inhabitants of the present reality, are forced to see how our lives flow within the limits of the conscience of a Demiurge, and can only hope to be released from the Matrix when we break free from the constrictions of this conscience and access a “parallel”, higher conscience.

      My first comment is that there is nothing ‘wrong’ with linear time. It is one manifestation of reality and part of this physical reality. Is it limiting in its definition of reality? Yes. Does it serve a purpose? Yes.

      But my larger comment is that you do not release yourself from the control of the Demiurge and all his lies by casting off the concept of linear time. Linear time is not one of his primary control mechanisms. You break out of the controls of the lies by doing exactly what LKJ suggests:

      that we, as inhabitants of the present reality, ………. can only hope to be released from the Matrix when we break free from the constrictions of this conscience and access a “parallel”, higher conscience.

      Exactly the same as my Antidote, my push to get each of you to make the connection to your non-physical consciousness. As LKJ states, this is the path, really the only path, to freedom from the Matrix, the Lies of Modernity.

      But we can talk more about time and its nature, as I know it, in this and other places.

      OtB

    • #8319
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      A Stonghold

      @Dis:

      Asks me to comment on the following quote from LKJ:

      
3- The need to enter a stronghold fortified by the Hyperdimensional principle of the Strategic Enclosure, that is, a place snatched away from the domain of the Powers of Matter, in a state of complete ontological nakedness (divested of the cultural and mental premises that seal our present state of subordination to the Control Matrix) and with complete “desynchronization” of the individual conscience from linear or worldly time.

      The only way I know to create a ‘stronghold fortified by the Hyper-dimensional principle of the Strategic Enclosure’ is to gain knowledge and experience at both the physical and non-physical levels. And, as LKJ states, strip the lies of subordination out of us. We can only be strong when we are sovereign beings capable of growing in our own ways. We can not be strong or resist much of anything when filled up with unexamined lies.

      I am not sure what she is talking about in reference to linear time. Linear time is a reality. But possibly she is talking about the strong belief most of us have in the concepts of past, present and future. The correct understanding of these relationships of action (Not time, but energetic action) is that there really is only now, only the present. When physical we can only act at each unit of consciousness, each moment of ‘now’. Time as we think of it in terms of past present and future does not exist here in this physical place, only now. Time becomes a unit of action. The past exists as a form of energy dissipating in its action, presented to us as memories. The present exists as action at each moment of consciousness. The future exist as units of potential action.

      As an energetic entity of action we lose strength when we focus our attention and intention anywhere except now.

      Not sure I answered your question about this quote.

      OtB

      • #8326
        DisenchantedDisenchanted
        Participant

        I’ve seen linear time referred to as artificial time, mechanical time and worldly time, all as opposed to natural time(or nature’s time).

        I understand natural time to be as regulated by the earth, moon, planets and universe’s natural cycles. I’ve read that physical humans have a much better sense of well being if they stick to these natural cycles and not allow themselves to be driven by the artificial/mechanical times created by ‘the Matrix system’. Don’t/didn’t many indigenous peoples follow lunar cycles specifically?

        Maybe linear time is a reality, but is it another false reality?

         

        edit: Hey can you pour me another glass out of that bottomless margarita pitcher? ;p

        "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

        • #8331
          ZenscreamerZenscreamer
          Participant

          Language… words… so much implicit.

          I think that there are multiple frameworks being referenced by the same terms, and hence confused.

          OtB is talking about Time the Dimension (as in space/time or our subjective chronological experience in the moving Now) and basically saying it’s part of our waking reality, and hence neither illusory or false (as in our experience of it in our individual subjective world is “real”), and that the trap is in using perception of past & future as an excuse to fail to act in the Now (the only place action can occur).

          Linear Time as you are describing it, Dis, is an artifact of the timepiece era. Control of “what day it is” and “what time it is” and “how we track time” does have psychological and sociological implications. Time the Dimension (as subjectively experienced) is an open-ended helical structure, as in history rhymes but never repeats; projecting the helix in the mind’s eye we can see that in one view it looks like a uni-dimensional sin wave, and from another, endless retracements of a circle. Modernism (Futurism) denies the circular aspect of Time the Dimension (“Progress! Evolution! Forward!”) but some systems also deny the uniqueness of each pass around and so fall into a trap of a different kind.

          That said, I agree Dis — I hate the modern calendar as it makes no sense at all, with the seemingly random lengths of months which themselves have bizarre, meaningless names (in English, I realize they have a historical derivation) and I really detest the imposition of what in the US we call “Daylight Savings Time” which does nothing of the kind, only gives the entire populations a sense of lack of control over their own sleep-wake cycle as the Linear Time of Modernity slides around underneath them.

          All in all I am continually amazed by the lack of astronomical awareness in most modern westerners and to me it is all part of a lack of interest in the natural world — if you don’t know what the Moon phase is, you can’t know how high the tide will be or whether it will be light out at midnight. The Sumerians had a lunar calendar that always started on the first full moon after the spring equinox, with months of 30 days (yes it got messy at the end of the year and needed to be adjusted every so often). Imagine what it would be like if by knowing the # of a given day of the month you automatically knew the moon phase. Fantastic!

          • #8352
            On the BeachOn the Beach
            Participant

            Hi Dis and Zens:

            Thank you Zens for saying in better words than I could what I meant in my description of how we interact with linear time in this place as physical beings. As physical beings here in this physical place we can only operate in the present ‘Now”. We have no capability of operating in the ‘past’ or the ‘future’.

            As non-physical beings we can and do operate in all three temporal states of being. We can get a hint of this from our dreams when they seem to get all jumbled up in time.

            I think that time as a function of energy is deeply affected by physical structures in our universe. Since almost everything in our universe goes round and round, then it would seem that time is cyclical. In a way that might be true but I think the more important way to think of it is that certain energetic strengths change, increase and decrease, during these cycles and this energy has an increasing and decreasing effect on everything it comes in contact with, including us. A sort of back ground influence to all the rest of the energy we are creating and using as conscious entities in a universe of energy. If I am correct then both Dis and Zenscreamer are very right in their desire to base our time sense and measurements on something physical such as the moon. It makes very good sense to me.

            OtB

          • #8364
            DisenchantedDisenchanted
            Participant

            Thanks Zenscreamer and OtB for further fleshing out the time issue. This all reminded me of the first four lines in T.S. Eliot’s Burnt Norton the first of the Four Quartets:

            Time present and time past
            Are both perhaps present in time future
            And time future contained in time past.
            If all time is eternally present
            All time is unredeemable.

            "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

            • #8431
              On the BeachOn the Beach
              Participant

              OK Disenchanted:

              No more messing about here Dis. You have my complete undivided and very curious attention.

              How in the world did you come up with this quote from an almost 70 year old poem? You gotta tell me. Do you walk around with these connections in your head or do you use a Mac with a huge literary file and ‘Spotlight’ what ever topic it is you are interested in. Or do you use a tagging, cross reference program like Devon Pro? I’m so curious. I just gotta know.

              I have to admit I do not know TS Eliot very well. But I was stunned by this quote. So stunned I had to use your link and read the whole poem, well at least the first section, ‘Burnt Norton’. To me this entire poem is deeply spiritual and very mysterious. I read a review and that mentioned the poem was Christian religious but I am not so sure about that.

              To understand that time is not redeemable is a very deep understanding of the eternal but completely ephemeral and unique nature of each moment. You can not make a claim against time for being faulty because each unit of time is only ever ‘now’ and never becomes past or future so you could never find fault. It is a very interesting observation that I would never have thought of and goes to the heart of issues of discernment and judgement.

              That sets up the whole topic of what it might mean to actually be able to play as an entity in past, present and future instead of being limited to actions only possible in ‘now’. TS Eliot plays with that idea in this poem. I will work on that issue for the dream thread.

              Thank you so much for the link Dis. It is wonderful.

              • #8452
                DisenchantedDisenchanted
                Participant

                You’re welcome OtB. No files, ‘spotlights’, or tagging here, it’s just lots of reading and connections in my head. Something I read recently referenced the Burnt Norton poem and not even the part I quoted here. But I too at the time had to go look up and read the whole thing and then when we started talking about time here something clicked in my head that the very first part of Eliot’s poem contained something that would fit here very well. So I looked it up again and there it was.

                I can’t even remember now what it was that I was reading that first led me to Burnt Norton, or if it was in a book or online. So sometimes, and much more often lately, all those connections don’t click properly.

                btw I think Eliot was much more influenced by ‘eastern thought'(specifically India(n) philosophy and Buddhism) than some like to let on…Two other great poems by him you might like are “The Waste Land,” which he dedicated to Ezra Pound, and “The Hollow Men.”  That is if you aren’t already familiar with those.

                edit: I just noticed that I typed “the first four lines” in that post above re: Burnt Norton. As you can see it’s actually the first five lines…so obviously I can’t count worth a damn. Need work on my ‘cipherin’.

                edit2: The subject of “Ownership” has also come up here, so how about this gem from the second of the Quartets(“East Coker”) at that same link:

                 You say I am repeating
                Something I have said before. I shall say it again.
                Shall I say it again? In order to arrive there,
                To arrive where you are, to get from where you are not,
                You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstacy.
                In order to arrive at what you do not know
                You must go by a way which is the way of ignorance.
                In order to possess what you do not possess
                       You must go by the way of dispossession.
                In order to arrive at what you are not
                You must go through the way in which you are not.
                And what you do not know is the only thing you know
                And what you own is what you do not own
                And where you are is where you are not.

                 

                edit-thrice: Just had to add that the subject of time is a constant theme throughout all of Eliot’s Four Quartets…and not just in Burnt Norton.

                "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

                • #8479
                  On the BeachOn the Beach
                  Participant

                  Hi @Disenchanted:

                  I am amazed at your connections to literature and your depth of reading. You should have a PhD in history or literature lurking on a wall somewhere. You certainly have one of the necessary skills.

                  Thank you so much for these reading ideas. I am now very interested in TS Eliot and will read all of these very soon.

                  I did check more and agree with you. It seems TS Eliot might even have gone to India to study Sanskrit and to translate the ‘Vedas’.

                  The passage you quote just above is very lovely and very deeply spiritual. I am writing about this very subject now in an essay that will be at the end of the Antidote series.

                  But I have to be honest that too much of the Eastern philosophies leave me ill at ease; do not resonant properly within me. I have tried, I really have, years ago, with Hindu and Buddhist and Zen and Tao works but I am put off by some of their efforts to explain our connection to our spiritual nature by a negation or repression of our physical emotional self. This is a problem for me and in many cases seems to me to miss the point. There is tremendous ecstasy in finding the path to yourself as long as you discern that path in its proper relationships. There are things you can own, because you can create them directly by yourself or with others. There are other things you can never own, that are outside your realm of influence. These things you can only share if given the grace to do so. It is not quite right to face this issue of possible sorrow of dispossession or loss by withdrawing into a state of non-emotion. For me it always seemed a wrong solution, a misunderstanding. What seems better to me is to really understand what is going on in these relationships with creations. And to understand that the joys of the physical are just as important and real as any that might be experienced in any other realm anywhere. There is no substantial difference in judgmental quality at all. Sorrow, unremitting sorrow, comes when you attach to something as a physical that is not possible for you. You do not properly understand its structure or origins. Discernment is the right approach, not withdrawal into emotionless contemplations as a way to avoid sorrow. Besides, what is wrong with sorrow? Sorrow in itself needs to be properly discerned, not avoided. And in a way, TS Eliot is saying that, but it never seems quite positive or passionate enough to me. Even if you do not possess something you can celebrate its being and joy in its creation and in sharing it on its own terms, knowing that its loss will come to you someday but until that day you will live in joy at the very knowing of this thing beyond you.

                  But I know I am not making sense and not getting this deep and very subtle difference in my meaning across. I wish I could write as well as TS Eliot, having his stream of words at my command to try to tease out this very difficult state of being I am trying to describe.

                  The only reason to be alive in the physical is for the shear great joy of being alive here in this magnificent and beautiful place.

                  OtB

                  • #8519
                    DisenchantedDisenchanted
                    Participant

                    @ OtB

                    Wanted to tell you that I remembered what I was reading that pointed me to Eliot’s Burnt Norton. It was yet another Joseph Campbell book titled “Myths To Live By.”

                    you said above:

                    You should have a PhD in history or literature lurking on a wall somewhere.

                    Ha! I never had the social skill set nor the desire to accomplish such a thing. Nor would my parents, with their religious bent, have ever encouraged it even if I would have. There’s a reason I do what I do now for a living and have done so for the last roughly thirty years. The least amount of social contact in the physical world as possible while still providing me with the means($$) to get by in this crazy world.

                    My social contact with others, besides family, is best done in this format…in the virtual world on forums and such. Sad I know. But I learned early in my life when I worked in an office, factory, farm and other similar environments that it would be best that I find something where I could be off by myself for the majority of the time. ‘Office politics’ were for me a big fail. Farming(lots of time alone out in the fields on the tractor) and trucking have been by far my favorites. Being a farmhand was actually my #1 choice, but back when I(and the new wife at that time) still cared a lot about the $$$, farming didn’t pay that many.

                    Where I’m employed now has given me the opportunity to work a week on/week off schedule(for almost 20 years now), which is really the chief reason I’m still with that corporation. But that schedule affords me the time to spend on my first love, which has always been reading. The negative side of that though is too much reading, and not enough doing. Part of that is the lazy factor too.

                    And here we are…off to read your essay five of the Antidote.

                    btw, there’s some part or another in ALL the philosophies that leave me ill at ease…

                    "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

    • #8480
      MorpheusMorpheus
      Participant

      Hi OtB,

      I know this doesn’t go in this forum but thought I would comment as it was at the top of forums and I am a bit behind in my reading. I wanted to thank you for your great articles (I just finished chapter 3) and they have helped me to put things into more context. I too look forward to more of what you have to offer.

      • #8482
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        @Morpheus:

        Thank you for your kind words Morpheus. And I have learned so much from your postings on earth issues. Thank you.

        The essays and all the other words I have written here were easy to write: getting the courage to even write the first word was what was terribly hard for me.

        I know this stuff can be difficult. Please feel free to ask me anything about any of it.

        OtB

        • #8493
          MorpheusMorpheus
          Participant

          @On the Beach

          Sure, they are well-deserved and I am glad to have been helpful to you. It is sometimes hard to find people to share information with, these forums have been a great opportunity to do that.

          Yes, sitting down to begin can be the hardest part but like you said, once you do it just flows out and it really helps to better organize and communicate what you are thinking.

          I have not yet found anything difficult in what you have written. I will definitely want to ask you more and also share some of my experience on how I got to where I am during my time on Earth. I have some other writing to attend to first and your essays might also reveal more to help me understand my journey better.

    • #8536
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Hi @Disenchanted:

      So sorry to hear about the turmoil in your life. I see it must be especially difficult for you now that I read what you just posted to me above here in this thread. Nothing much worse than going nose to nose with those you love in your family.

      One of the reasons for my essays was to do my best to give people a chance at developing their own philosophies by expanding their own consciousness. Individual exploration of the universe is the only way forward for anyone anyway. Step by step they can make their own philosophies from their own experiences. They can be more at ease with that than anything they can read. Besides, its so much fun.

      Hang in there buddy.

    • #9631
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Hi @Disenchanted:

      I’m combining a coupe quotes from 2 of your posts on Random Droppings and moved that discussion over here to our thread. I’m doing that because this discussion gets really important and is no longer about Random Droppings at all. I hope that is OK with you.

      You quoted and made some statements about the recent JLL podcast:

      JLL in his Oct 5 audio Nousletter(which I’ve linked above in a separate reply to OtB) warns to beware of the “Seeker’s Syndrome,” in other words those who say it’s the journey that’s more important and not the goal.

      And:

      But I also caught this part more towards the end(paraphrased):

      “It’s about fucking time for the finger-pointing and the blaming to end and time for someone to actually do something.” ~ JLL

      Yes he did use the F-word…more than once. Re: The Buddhist thing(“CONTROLLED OPPOSITION TO ENLIGHTENMENT”), Wow! That’s a new wrinkle for sure, at least for me…(again paraphrased):

      “The Buddhist tossers from the Dalai Lama on down are getting on my tits.” ~ JLL using some Brit slang Oct 5, 2014

      Once again I certainly do not want to put words in JLL’s mouth. He is more than capable of speaking for himself, but in this case he is talking to an issue that drives me crazy also.

      And, as you noted, he is getting very passionate about this issue, but what issue is he talking about, especially in singling out Buddhism for a dressing down?

      I have never been comfortable with Buddhism, other Eastern religions and especially New Age thinking because of their philosophies that I will paraphrase as “everything is OK exactly as it is now, everything is as it is supposed to be. There is no right or wrong, there is only the journey and no matter what we do we can just keep redoing it again and again and again through many different lives.”

      This philosophy is utter crap and in direct opposition to enlightenment. The implication that everything is OK is another Lie. Anyone with half a brain can look around and see that everything is not OK. This New Age kind of belief that everything is OK since there really is no right or wrong and anyway we can do these dramas over and over is just another version of Salvationism except in certain ways worse. Another form of looking for an easy path.

      The entire point of the physical dramas is to become enlightened, and that means to engage the dramas with mindful depth and passion, not stoicism or distance or withdrawal. It is true that the journey is the important thing, but that does not mean to take the journey as if you were actually at a movie or a play and only watching a screen. That kind of journey is nothingness, a kind of being a zombie.

      And this disengagement with the drama is exactly what is needed for the Lies to be put in place and maintained. To paraphrase another quote, “All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.”

      Now the evil of the Lies is so enormous that they can barely be thought of much less confronted. All we can really do is withdraw from the Lies as much as we can and work inside ourselves to gain the energy and strength to live better lives on a personal basis. To become conscious of what we can and must do to protect ourselves is actually very very powerful in ways most can not understand.

      The narrative of the Lies uses hidden energy to enforce compliance with the goals of the Lies. These energy forms are non-physical and a type of magic, a very dark occult magic in the case of these manufactured Lies of Modernity. This energy comes from everyone who believes mindlessly in these Lies. The only way out is through our own personal efforts with mindful, conscious attention, intention and action. Remove your energy from the Lies and start to form better patterns for yourself. This is a deeply spiritual effort.

      To stop seeking, that only keeps you inside the Lies.

      To stop putting thoughtful mindful intention and action off, knowing that you have other lives to get it right. What of your responsibility to yourself and your family right now?

      “It’s about fucking time for the finger-pointing and the blaming to end and time for someone to actually do something.” ~ JLL

      It’s hard for me to say this thing any better than JLL has.

      This is a call for personal action right now, starting inside ourselves.

      OtB

      • #9632
        DisenchantedDisenchanted
        Participant

        @ OtB,

        It’s ok with me to bring this here if you want to. Initially I didn’t want to trash your threads with controversial topics…just in case.

        re: Buddhism

        I had always thought of Buddhism as one of the least intrusive of the world religions…well actually I thought of Buddhism as more of a philosophy than a religion. This is why what JLL said surprised me. But then again I’ve never lived amongst true hardcore Buddhists. Now that I think about it, the self-immolation thing is pretty hardcore.

        I hadn’t been keeping up with everything JLL has been doing lately. The Kalika War Party is an interesting concept.

        I had some other things typed out regarding ‘seeking as just a journey and not a goal’ and family responsibilities. But decided against airing them out, as this(TIF) is not the place. Maybe I can bounce some things off of you privately some time…I’m leaving again in the morning, so maybe next time I’m home again. I don’t have any devices to be connected online while I’m on the road and that’s by design.

        btw, have you heard from Lion Lady lately, is she still having computer/connection issues?

         

        "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

        • #9677
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Hi Disenchanted:

          You can always contact me directly by email. I understand that many of these subjects are too difficult for public discussions.

          Just ask Mrs. Cog for my email address.

          Have a good and safe trip.

          OtB

          • #9919
            DisenchantedDisenchanted
            Participant

            Just saw this one too OtB.

            I’ll get your email addy and think about what it is exactly I want “bounce off of you” while out and about next week. Get back to you after 1st of next month. Thanks for being there.

            "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

            • #9954
              LionLadyLionLady
              Participant

              Hi, Dis:

              Yep – I’m still here and finally able to be a bit more consistent in commenting/posting – post-tomatogedden. :)

              As OtB has offered, I’m also available via ‘private post’ for any rants/vents/whatevers. Just ask our lovely hostess for the gory details . . .

              Safe journey – and do find some woods/land/seashore/etc. to set foot on sometime during your ‘away time’. Good for the soul/soles.

              :) L/L

      • #9642
        AvatarMrs Cog
        Keymaster

        Hi OtB,

        You wrote:

        I have never been comfortable with Buddhism, other Eastern religions and especially New Age thinking because of their philosophies that I will paraphrase as “everything is OK exactly as it is now, everything is as it is supposed to be. There is no right or wrong, there is only the journey and no matter what we do we can just keep redoing it again and again and again through many different lives.”

        This philosophy is utter crap and in direct opposition to enlightenment. The implication that everything is OK is another Lie. Anyone with half a brain can look around and see that everything is not OK. This New Age kind of belief that everything is OK since there really is no right or wrong and anyway we can do these dramas over and over is just another version of Salvationism except in certain ways worse. Another form of looking for an easy path.

        Without being knowledgeable with the indoctrination or the study of Eastern religions and philosophies or new age thinking, my interpretation of some of these ideas you touch upon seems to be quite different than some of your conclusions. Since you and I have a history of really good deep conversations, I thought I might try a public discussion, something I have shied away from as I see my role here more as hostess than member.

        I don’t want to hijack Disenchanted’s thread here, nor take the liberty of creating a new thread on your forum, so at your convenience, point me to where we should talk and I’ll bring the warm cookies. (Hey, it worked for the Oracle. ;-))

        warm-cookies

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        • #9653
          DisenchantedDisenchanted
          Participant

          @ Mrs. Cog, re:

          I don’t want to hijack Disenchanted’s thread here

          This is really OtB’s thread and besides I’m a well known thread hijacker myself…mostly unintentional. Just being my ‘bull in the china shop’ self.

          I think that many of the participants here(including myself) would find your “hijacking” and resulting convo with OtB very interesting.

          So ‘hijack’ away. Not to mention that I really like the looks of those warm cookies! ;p

          "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

          • #9655
            ZenscreamerZenscreamer
            Participant

            < nerd >

            Just being my ‘bull in the china shop’ self.

            I can’t hear that aphorism without thinking of the Mythbusters episode. As you might imagine, herd animals are hard-wired not to hit stationary objects they can see — the aphorism was just made up.

            </ nerd >

            • #9660
              DisenchantedDisenchanted
              Participant

              @ Zens

              the aphorism was just made up.

              Aren’t they all… ;)

              bull in china shop

              "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

          • #9656
            AvatarMrs Cog
            Keymaster

            @Disenchanted – thank you. I will commence warming up in the bull pen for my shot at the pitcher’s mound shortly. :-)

            I find the cookie approach works as well as kittens, puppies and as we all know now, lions. It evokes an emotional response from the viewer and pulls them in for more (from selecting images with Cognitive Dissonance 101).

            more-cookies

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        • #9676
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          What a wonderful response from you all.

          Of course I welcome this discussion with you Mrs Cog on this very important issue. In fact, I think this very discussion will be so important I will create a new thread under my forum for it. I think I will call it “Under Whose Authority?”

          Underneath all the words we are all just people trying hard to find our way in an increasingly difficult world. Whatever support and encouragement we can provide is what we should be doing for each other.

          Of course I would much rather have this discussion with you all here in PI on the beach under our beautiful tropical sky. Today is about 80 with a nice dry north breeze blowing down out of China, the remains of a cold front. But by the time the wind crosses 400 miles of South China Sea it isn’t very cold any more though. Beach wear and cold tropical drinks would be a requirement!

          But we will make do with this wonderful forum created by Mr and Mrs Cog. I am so grateful.

          OtB

    • #9878
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Hi @Disenchanted:

      I saw your post on the music thread about driving in America now and how drivers are kind of acting out an unnatural spirit of the times.

      I don’t know how you will manage to be a trucker and have a fear of driving too.

      I know I don’t drive here at all and can not imagine driving any more. It has been 8 years since I set foot in America and I can not imagine the situation being better now than it was 8 years ago. The thought of returning to Seattle and picking up a car at the car rental in the airport makes my bold run cold. I’m honestly not sure if I can. I don’t drive here at all. I walk locally or use the motorcycle sidecars and jeepnees as local taxis if I have to. Otherwise we use busses. I did have cars here, but had drivers too and just never drove. It was liberating to get all that time back. As a contractor in America I spent at least 2 hours a day behind the wheel driving and thought nothing of that. Just another acceptable cost of the American lifestyle. I now view those hours as a dead loss out of my life.

      I honestly don’t know what I will do about the driving issue when I get back to America for a visit.
      There are only about 10 Westerners here full time in this little provincial town of 50,000 people. Only 2 others are American. I avoid them. The rest are Europeans or Australians and we meet occasionally at parties or neighborhood fiestas. Everyone else is Asian and it is wonderful to live in that vibrational energy. I just couldn’t take America any more. The hatefulness, selfishness and lack of shame was intolerable to me. Life does not have to be like that. No place is perfect and this lifestyle has all sorts of issues but at least there is no national ethic of killing as a hobby. Or brutal sport as a pastime. Fast break basket ball and badminton are the pubic sports of choice here. There used to be some city sponsored boxing in town but a 17 year old was killed 2 years ago and that whole sport was banned. No discussion at all; everyone was horrified that some mother lost her son and the whole thing was dropped and now is over.

      The national pastime actually seems to be making and taking care of babies and they are really really good at that. Just getting by is a challenge but everyone pitches in to help the family survive. I like it a lot.

      OtB

      • #9880
        The Urban PepperThe Urban Pepper
        Participant

        Hello on the beach,

         

        You say Only 2 others are American. I avoid them. Why do you avoid them? I think I know the answer as I have the same feelings. OTB I like your sincerity and honesty in your essays, their aren’t to many people that can do that. I just wanted to tell you that.

         

        Mr Pepper

         

        • #9895
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Hello Mr. Pepper:

          Thank you so much for the complement and kind words. But I know no other way of being. I know it is an illusion to think a person can be anything other than 100% honest. Everything we really are is written in the energy around us. To be less than honest while not being mean spirited is ignorant when a person understands there is no real way to lie. Lessons from my teachers.

          Why do I avoid them, these 2 Americans? Honestly…… laughing at the irony here. Because most Americans are men in the Philippines to be able to have sex with young women. And I have no issues with that at all. Over the mountains to my East is Angeles City with 30,000 bar girls working every night. A man who wants could have a different girl for breakfast, lunch and dinner, for less that $75 total per day. My wife and I lived there for 5 years and lots of those girls are our friends.

          But these guys are here in the Provinces so they can try to get innocent young province girls for free. It is a game to them to be as cheap and sleazy as humanly possible. They know these girls are fascinated with the chance to be married to a foreigner. These are not bar girls. Sooner or later a father or brother or uncle is going to gut one of these guys.

          All the rest are long term married men here with their Filipina wives and families, like me. Up the street is a Scot who has been here 20 years. A mile farther is a Dane married to one of my wife’s cousins. An Australian is married to another one of my wife’s cousins in the next barrio. Most here are German and Swiss.

          I love that name you chose, by the way.

          OtB

      • #9892
        DisenchantedDisenchanted
        Participant

        OtB said:

        I don’t know how you will manage to be a trucker and have a fear of driving too.

        I don’t know either On the Beach, I just don’t know. It will come to a head soon enough I think.

        btw I second Mr. Pepper on this:

        I like your sincerity and honesty in your essays, their aren’t to many people that can do that.

        "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

        • #9897
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Thank you Disenchanted. As I told Mr. Pepper, I don’t know any other way to be. The Big Guys were great teachers.

          OtB

    • #9887
      AvatarYowie
      Participant

      There are only about 10 Westerners here full time in this little provincial town of 50,000 people. Only 2 others are American. I avoid them. The rest are Europeans or Australians and we meet occasionally at parties or neighborhood fiestas. 

      Don’t let anybody make you feel bad about that.  I spent a few months in China.  One time I heard an Australian in the street – the last thing I wanted to do was go up and say g’day.  Something about the juxtaposition of culture highlights the less endearing qualities of one’s own nationality.

      • #9896
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        Hello @Yowie:

        Boy that is the truth, especially as an American now out and about in the world. I was in Germany the day the US invaded Iraq and was so happy I brought my Red Maple Leaf cap with me. I wore that thing everywhere.

        I think the funniest story I have about Australians was one time in Bali, one of the most magical places on earth in my opinion. My wife and I were at a very exclusive resort way on the east end of the island well away from all the crazy Australian crowds of Denpasar. That place is just one huge drunken rolling mess from beach to hotel lobby for about 10 miles. This resort we were at was completely isolated and very relaxing, full of Japanese and 3 Westerners: myself and a married Australian couple about 65. One day I asked him why he wasn’t with all his countrymen at Denpasar and he just smiled at me and replied, “Exactly”…. I couldn’t help but laugh.

        My wife and I have lived in China for about 6 months. We just love it, have so many wonderful stories and friends there.

        OtB

        • #9917
          AvatarYowie
          Participant

          Species: “Australianis Turpis” aka “Australianis Boganus Expatridis”  (common name: “Ugly Australian”)

          Language: Englishish

          Habitat: Endemic to the beaches of Kuta and the bars of Bangkok.

          Diet: Meat pies and Fosters Bintang/Singha

          Physical Characteristics: Often observed wearing thongs (flip-flops folks, usually not the other type) and mullet haircut.

          Mating Habits: Pankinetic (anything that moves)

          Behaviour: Words cannot describe

          • #9920
            On the BeachOn the Beach
            Participant

            Hahaha……..

            We get that sub-species here in Iba too, since it is a beach resort town.

            They stop at the Angeles City bars to girl up and then come over here for a week of fun in the sun with San Miguels and as many girls as they could afford.

            You forgot to mention the tattoos and multiple piercings. Colorful guys in so many ways!

            • #9930
              AvatarYowie
              Participant

              lba?

              Guys?  I meant the girls too!

              • #9955
                On the BeachOn the Beach
                Participant

                Hi @Yowie:

                Iba is the name of the town where I live. It is the provincial capital of Zambales province, Central Luzon, Philippines. It is a beach town on the South China Sea, but the resorts here are all for Filipinos, not the foreign tourist market. That means they are mainly not to international standards and are dirt cheap. Perfect, right?

                Hahaha……. you caught me out. I was not going to mention the rather indelicate fact that lots of gals from your part of the world also come to Angeles City bars, girl up and come to the beaches here. They are in almost all ways indistinguishable from the guys from that Southern locale. Especially the mullets.

                OtB

                • #9974
                  AvatarYowie
                  Participant

                  :-)

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