On the Ground: African Community Structure

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    • #8035
      LionLadyLionLady
      Participant

      4. TranceDance Petroglyph
      CAPTION: San/KhoiKhoi group ‘trance dance’ petroglyph, Cederberg Mountains, South Africa – my own photo.

      The concept of village-based community, as well as the time-honored southern African tradition of UBUNTU, are my topics here. The creation of a living and vibrantly workable community model for coming times might well be modeled on the indigenous principles of true community. Let’s discuss! Do bring opinions, experiences & ideas to share; the more to work with, the merrier!

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    • #8096
      On the BeachOn the Beach
      Participant

      Personally, discovering how communities survive and thrive over time, how they encourage the individual while ensuring the community, is one of the most important issues I wrestle with. There are lots of web sites that deal with the issue but most are always coming from some point of modernity and I think that just can’t happen. Modernity is an epic failure in almost all respects except perhaps technology, and there might be a case made that technology is also a leading point of failure for the individual in modernity.

      Somehow these small communities find a way to combine the individual with the community so they both become interdependent and resilient. We’ve lost that and are so lost I fear myself never finding my way to proper community understanding.

      I look forward to your discussion on your personal observations on African community.

      • #8128
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hi, OtB: Glad to see you over here, poking about.

        Community creation is on my personal bucket list of most-important things to do/create/inspire in this lifetime – thus this thread. I’m hoping to strike a spark here so that the discussion travels outward and engages those who truly want to live in and support an ongoing, workable community experience.

        That said, I do have to agree with you regarding the non-viability of current ideas about what constitutes community. Lots of concepts exist out there, but few are tried and tested and working at present. I have personally worked on three major community-creation projects intended for global implementation of real, core community development – and they all turned into terminal arm-wrestles over philosophies, personal visions and structural conflicts no matter how ‘enlightened’ the leaders and staff were, at least in their own heads. As I was always an advisor, I got to sit back and watch such high-minded intentions simply melt down in the face of personal ‘stuff’. And I learned a lot because of that.

        For three years prior to these projects, I worked for a company that researched and created authentic ‘stories’ for new planned communities, i.e. stories based upon their local history, ethnic roots, and intended purpose. That was fun; but what I researched and wrote up was only used to create what I would call ‘fake’ villages that had an authentic storyline to reference for inspiration – but it was generally marginalized in favor of more financially-rewarding (and boringly safe) choices, sad to say. It gave me a chance to sit back in charrette meetings and watch the push-me-pull-you between functional creativity vs. hard-nosed, bottom-line-driven business agendas.

        It was interesting work if, in the end, disappointing – but I learned a great deal about what not to do and, by combining that with the planning stages for the following three large projects and comparing/relating those experiences with the simpler, older and more day-to-day workable versions I encountered in southern Africa, I began to get a glimmer of how this could be done, for real.

        These ‘adventures’, along with my experience of the older, indigenous African village model, will form the basis for this discussion – as well as the work I’ve done with my teachers in transporting the African village concept to the US for a trial run back in 2007. That experience was entirely encouraging in terms of the successful inoculation of the predominantly white, western workshop participants with this very real and very do-able indigenous style of living in community.

        It will also be intriguing to consider the best way to incorporate new technology into the much older village technology that operates today in remote indigenous groups. There really is an older, very functional village technology that exists; so the integration of the very new with the ancient tried-and-tested old should be exciting – and very challenging.

        So – here we are and the floor is open. I look forward to hearing about your own experiences/concerns/frustrations and dreams around this exciting subject.

        L/L

        • #8160
          On the BeachOn the Beach
          Participant

          Hi LL:

          Now you really do have my whole and complete attention. I do not know another person who has the experience in actually trying to express the intentions required in community building and then trying to at least workshop, if not implement those community building ideas, other than you. The internet is full of talking heads, most of whom I think are talking nonsense.

          Also, I do not think you can approach this issue of what it takes to create a community by working from the structures of modernity. Modernity has nothing at all to offer and in almost all cases can only offer poison, either fast acting or slow acting.

          So that leaves me deeply suspicious of my own capabilities in this area, since I know I am basically a child of modernity, even if I am a rebellious child. I know lots of stuff about better individual actions but how to take those concepts and apply them to group actions is a scary proposition for me.

          I am pretty sure that almost anything I might bring to the discussion would be from the default camp of ‘won’t work’. The only thing I do know for sure is that all communities must have a driving, forming enabling narrative to thrive and last. Your story about hiring someone to write this ‘story’ is so sad it’s funny. This story must come from inside the members of the community, from their lives and deeply personal experiences and then be translated by them into a narrative for generations to build on. Hiring someone else to do this? An amazing thing to think about. How lost and out of touch must people be before they know they are lost?

          And in this case of community building I truly think I am also lost. Perhaps not as lost as someone hiring a third party to write their ‘story’ to base their community on but certainly clueless in other very important ways.

          I do think that collapse will help create motivation to find real working solutions to community where now this search in the developed world is not much more than ego driven posturing. Funny how hunger and necessity will do that.

          So I look forward to this discussion and promise to contribute and do homework as much as needed.

          Thank you

          OtB

          • #8184
            LionLadyLionLady
            Participant

            Hi, OtB:

            Please find my kick-off response to your excellent queries down below. I’m trying to keep this thread more organized than the old one in terms of ongoing discussion. My reply to you starts this conversation, which I will be maintaining in the far left-hand margin so that it becomes continuous chapters in the discussion. I’ll do small/individual answers to specifics, in the reply boxes. I think that will work best.

            Thanks for being flexible – I think this will serve us better over the long run.

            L/L

    • #8172
      DisenchantedDisenchanted
      Participant

      My sarcastic, cynical side wanted to say you could always contact the community organizer-in-chief for ‘help’ and ideas on this subject. But I’m trying to keep that beast in check here @ TIF. Whoops, too late! My bad…

      Seriously though, since I have no experience in this at all, what I really wanted to say is that the image at the top fascinates me. Especially the three figures in the bottom right-hand corner of the pic…not to mention the one in the far left bottom corner. I dub that one “The Loner.”

      That’s all I had…well except for:

      Would love to hear you “dish” on your thoughts about Collin’s theory that Cosmic Rays may have enhanced[altered DNA?] in only some humans thereby ‘qualifying’ them for the role of Shamans that I posted about here. Maybe in your newer Shamanism thread and not here at this one.

      "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

      • #8183
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hi, Dis:

        ‘On the rooaaaad again!’ are ‘ya? Well, thanks for dropping this wee bit of smart-ass over here.

        ‘Trying to keep that beast in check’? Evidently, not; but! – I can deal with it. (cue: Sweeping sounds) Well, you know how it is: When ya gotta go . . .ya gotta go.:)

        So, I note your ‘contribution’ and raise ‘ya one: ‘Organizer-in-Chief is a bit of the BS that OtB designates above as ‘Modernity’. This artificially-created ‘role’ in modern life is a hopeless one . . . just so you know. There’s no ‘help’ from such folks – or for them either, IMHO. They are the ones I reference early-on as terminally lost in my tandem upload response to OtB, above – do check it out. I seem to have anticipated your snark by a bit – or else we were coalescing in the ethers last night when I wrote it. Great minds, and all that . . .

        As for the figures of interest in the rock art photo that starts this thread – you’ve selected out the shamans, of course. I just checked the substantive opus on this subject: ‘African Rock Art: Painting and Engravings on Stone‘ by David Coulson and Alec Campbell (who just happens to be the late father of my two Babas). This is the definitive work on African rock art.

        My copy was given to me by Alec at the close of thwaasa, as a ‘going-away’ gift. We’d had many a marvelous conversation about this subject as well as about the real history/heritage/on-the-ground reality about Africa from his extensive studies all across the continent, as well as its ancient history and how he saw that as a basis for its current state. I learned a LOT from this amazing and lovely man, who epitomized both courtly European awareness as well as a profound respect and love for his adopted land and its peoples. Alec used to run Botswana’s National History Museum in Gabarone but, when I met him, he had retired to private work, i.e. focusing strictly on rock art and speaking world-wide on the subject.

        Hanging out at the Campbell homestaad, within walking distance of our thwaasa impanda, was a rare treat for me and I took advantage of the opportunity to get to know both Alec and his amazing wife Judy – a true ‘bush doctor’ who can treat just about anything from physical injury to complicated child-birth, as well as handle psychological issues and day-to-day ‘owies’, the kind that always happen during a thwaasa. I was there often, being bandaged up, dosed, and advised regarding a chronic physical issue that cropped up during my initiation and later turned into an emergency – but one that was dealt with professionally and successfully at the critical moment. Another ‘Story’ for the story thread, so I’ll talk more about that over there, sometime . . .

        Anyway, I’ve obviously digressed a lot from your interest in those three intriguing figures on the lower right, above. They are shamans; you can tell by their head-dresses (the curves). Their heads are at the right, with the head-dresses curving to the left. These are very likely feathered pieces, representing the tall, walking birds of the area: ostriches and flamingoes, which are often seen as man/birds, i.e. therianthropes, a common form of depicting a ‘tranced-human’. This style of representation shows up elsewhere in nearby regional rock art and is discussed in Alec’s book.

        As for the little, crouching figure at the lower left . . . hell, Dis! He’s holding an old Brownie camera and framing his shots! C’mon! You know the drill! LOL! Gotta document the natives doing their ‘thang’. :)

        Have a great road trip and be safe! Looking forward to your WTH! comments when you get back re: what I’m about to post for OtB, above. Also, we’ll get to your Cygnus insights in the new thread. Please pull, copy and paste all of your unanswered ‘stuff’ over to the new thread, when you’ve got a ‘mo, okay? That puts them all together for me and we can finally ‘get ‘er done’.

        10/4! :) L/L

        • #8194
          DisenchantedDisenchanted
          Participant

          Thanks for putting up with my wild hares(aka “WTH comments”) and as always for the details in your replies LL . I’m always up for side-trips and tangents…am pretty weak sometimes at staying on topic.

          re:

          Please pull, copy and paste all of your unanswered ‘stuff’ over to the new thread, when you’ve got a ‘mo, okay?

          Will have to do so when I return, have something else in my offline world to deal with before I leave tomorrow in the early AM. I don’t really think I had many unanswered questions, but I’ll make sure next week. Really was just interested on your thoughts on that last post(the Cygnus thingy) there that I linked above in reply #8172.

          Thank you as well for your good wishes to me for a safe road trip. Everything helps, as it’s a crazy world out there now. Sometimes I pass through that Ferguson/St.Louis, MO area when I’m out and about. Hopefully I’ll go in a different direction this week.

          Cheers!

          "There is a dream dreaming all of us." ~ Kalahari Bushmen

    • #8186
      LionLadyLionLady
      Participant

      FOR ALL READERS: THIS RESPONSE TO ONtheBEACH BEGINS THE DISCUSSION ON COMMUNITY CREATION. L/L

      Hello Back, OtB:

      Always nice to have someone’s ‘undivided attention’ :) – especially for a complex subject that is always so filled with ego-driven POV’s about how it’s supposed to be done. Few listen – or are humble enough to get past their own personal ‘visions’ of the utopian ideal of community. But, if one can do so, they will then discover what real community not only looks like, but how it feels, works, persists and evolves . . . and yet always stays true to its early roots in the land, relationships, personal responsibility and contributing one’s very best to the group – and vice versa.

      As for the creation of ‘authentic’ stories that give personality to a ‘planned community’, please don’t mistake a storyline pulled from the history of a physical place with it’s people and events, for the core collective reality story of a true community. Those stories I did were written to legitimize a physical place, NOT a human community. There is a world of difference.

      In my view, the reason ‘Modernity’ cannot succeed in the creation of a living, lasting, ongoing community with all key aspects met and put into action, is that today those who feel called to ‘design’ a community experience are, in actuality, putting the cart before the horse and focusing primarily on the physical container for the community (the planned community model) while completely ignoring the most essential aspect of the recipe: human relationships and their terms of engagement. That is their fatal mistake and always will be.

      And, sorry – it’s not really about the story coming from inside the members of the community, either. That isn’t how it works. That approach places the importance of individuals and their stories before the common story of the entire group and how that group survives and prospers given their inter-relatedness. The real core story comes from outside of the community and the individuals in it – it comes from the cosmos, from the greater ‘What IS’. Then, no one owns it, but all are an integral, essential, natural part of it – together and individually.

      There is great emphasis today on the importance of ‘The Individual’ – with good reason, given that there is such a push in our current world to squash and annihilate the individuated spark in each of us. The folks that want to run this place are very threatened by the power of the individual to stand separate from their plans and thus the cattle chutes we now live in are being continually tightened down more and more so that we are slowly losing the vision of being all that we can truly be . . . as you have so powerfully described in your ‘The Antidote’ series. However, there’s also now ‘the collective’. a newly-pejorative term now used to denigrate and dismiss the power of the group in order to keep us all separated from one another and unable to coalesce into a powerful unit that takes care of its own. So, both ends are played against the middle and the secret lies right there: in the middle.

      The secret of true community begins with the relationships that exist between every single member of the group: both personal relationships and the relationship of each individual to the entire group. This ‘communal glue’ is always in flux and must remain so, in order to work. A true community is a living, breathing thing; so to focus either on the group over all, or the individual over all – will kill it dead.

      You are, however, correct that a community MUST have its own narrative, its own core ‘story’ that everyone involved is committed to and works from in both their personal expression into the community and from the center of the collective community outward into the lives of each of its members.

      This may sound cult-ish – but it isn’t. Cohesion is essential for anything to hold together and a working community is no different. This core story narrative is rather like having a Mission Statement to steer by, but it’s got to be one helluva Mission Statement in terms of its all-encompassing vision of the purpose of the community, how it serves and is served by all participants, what is agreed to and allowed . . . and what is not.

      In essence, this must be a profoundly deep and well-rooted commitment to a much higher principle of Life than simple survival and sustenance. It must be based on a spiritual ground, one rooted to the very land upon which the community exists. The care, concern, love and appreciation for the earth that sustains the community must be an important part of the basis upon which the community is founded and from which it works. That reverence can take many forms, but it always gets back to knowing that there is a shared welfare at work. Neither the land, nor the land-dweller will endure, if there is no mutual relationship based on respect and awareness of the unity of all things with all community members.

      In such a community, there isn’t room for self-absorbed, exclusive individual behavior that harms the group; nor is there support for overbearing rules and regulations that have little meaning beyond enforcing the will of one part of the group on another. The care and feeding of a viable community is truly found in ‘a delicate balance’ between personal rights and welfare, and the over-arching well-being of the group.

      It’s always, always always a serious and sacred dance, this intertwined relationship between individuality and togetherness. But, it’s one that, when closely examined, not only allows for each to exist, but is an integral part in allowing both to thrive, grow and express themselves as fully as possible, when the whole is in motion with itself.

      More on this, as we go . . .

      :) L/L

      • #8198
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        Hi LL:

        Thank you so much for this long and very good initial description of ‘community’.

        You said:

        In essence, this (the core story narrative …. rather like having a Mission Statement) must be a profoundly deep and well-rooted commitment to a much higher principle of Life than simple survival and sustenance. It must be based on a spiritual ground, one rooted to the very land upon which the community exists. The care, concern, love and appreciation for the earth that sustains the community must be an important part of the basis upon which the community is founded and from which it works. That reverence can take many forms, but it always gets back to knowing that there is a shared welfare at work. Neither the land, nor the land-dweller will endure, if there is no mutual relationship based on respect and awareness of the unity of all things with all community members.

        To me, this is the most important issue: the mutual care and concern for both the earth that has given us (the community) life and the individuals we directly share our community welfare with in the pursuit of life. For me, this is religion.

        This is of course, where I ultimately mean my ‘Antidote’ series to go, but as of now have not stated such in any of my writings. I’m not sure I will in the 13 essays but ultimately the connection of the individual consciousness through their direct connection to Nature with others who have also connected to Nature is my deepest desire.

        Am I right to suspect that such a group connection to Nature is in fact what is going on in the rock painting of a group dance overseen by the three shamen? A group connection like that is still beyond my wildest most hopeful dreams in its potential for power and group cohesion. It’s so difficult to find even one other person anywhere who has looked Nature in the face and taken all that implies into themselves.

        Yesterday I read about a new grouping that I had not previously heard of: ‘the affinity cluster’.

        http://leavingbabylon.wordpress.com/2014/08/09/by-the-dozen/

        I like the concept a lot, much more than others that I think fall exactly into what you describe above as being ‘the planned community model’. That model, no matter how well planned will fail if not based on the individual relationships and their ability to sustain the group.

        I agree with the importance Leavergirl puts on the size of the affinity cluster/group. It must be small enough to foster deep feelings and intimacy among the members of the group. I think big gets us to where we are now, which is an epic failure.

        Now, how to find a group of people who can connect directly to Nature and who want to be together when they do that and who want to work hard on a relatively primitive sustainable farm? Goodness….

        Back to the drawing board.

        • #8220
          LionLadyLionLady
          Participant

          Hi, OtB:

          Rats. You’ve anticipated me!

          Size/affinity was the next part of this discussion and, Yes – size IS important . . . but NOT in the way that most guys think! LOL! In the case of community/village/tribal life, small is beautiful – and small works. More on that a bit later, so please do stay tuned.

          For right now, let’s roll into the information discussed on that very interesting ‘Leaving Babylon’ thread you linked above in your reply.

          That’s a great discussion, BTW; the author hit a lot of the points I was going to address next. However, I have a slightly different ‘take’ on this than she does when she emphasizes the affinity individuals in a group may feel for others as the means for creating successfully viable groups.

          You might start out this way – but eventually a natural lineage forms which takes the experiment far beyond affinity as its guiding principle. Affinity is only good until one makes more formal and longer-lasting commitments to others in such a group via pre-selection towards friendship/partnership exclusivity resulting in family-creation, resulting in offspring. In the end, a community of individuals, i.e. a working unit of specifically functional size, will naturally morph into and be forced to include inter-woven lineages that include a range of ages, roles and relationships – which takes the equation of functionality far beyond the scope of individuals simply choosing to hang out with each other because they’re ‘copacetic’.

          Real village life has to go beyond that self-focused limit in order to survive a long period of existence. There is always something that must be surrendered up for the overall well-being and success of the group. Arbitrary choices of who we want to forage with, or hang out with, belong to adolescent members of the group. Adults and elders have very different priorities for such gatherings, more along the lines of ‘Who is the most accomplished forager who knows the best way to gather . . . and what younger person has an affinity for this skill and thus should be included in that foraging journey so that down the road, our descendants remember how to do this sustainably?’ or ‘ Which individuals would benefit from ‘hanging out’ with each other and would both grow from the experience or pass on their experience and wisdom to fellow participants?’

          The community model MUST be a functional one, along with personal preference, personal wants/enjoyments, or arbitrary choices. Thoughtfulness about what is needed, insightfulness about what long-term benefit could/would be incurred, or even how an event or gathering would effectively deal with something that is affecting the group by having it occur in a certain way for the well-being of its participants (an initiation comes to mind in terms of dealing with the all-too-present angst of maturing teens) must also be considered in the mix.

          So, there’s a lot more to this community group thing-y than what is easy to manage or is a natural outcome of liking/affinity/preference. Deciding about such things is the purvey of the Elders and those who are natural chiefs, as seen and acknowledged by their peers and companions – which this article you’ve linked mentions in one of its inclusions. That, by the way, was a marvelous example of self-responsibility in group form and the wisdom of allowing things to evolve and show themselves through natural progression. Maturity in the village sense means huge responsibility for the future well-being of the group, so Elders carry a very heavy burden if they are truly there for their inheritors, who would do well to make good use of the lifetimes of experience available to them from these older community members.

          I know that in today’s world, the older generation is taking a lot of heat from younger members over blame for how the world is turning out. That is a very short-sighted stance for them to take – but it seems, unfortunately, to always be the attitude of those impatient to take their place amongst the adults in any community. Respect for prior experience, whatever one may think about it, is rather important in terms of gaining life-sustaining skills in the world – even if we think some of that experience was ill-advised.

          To watch and evaluate and think through the actions of those who’ve been there before you so that you can grow and evolve and more successfully share as a person yourself, requires a model of maturity amongst younger adults that is all too lacking in Modernity – yet another modern social failing that may overall prove lethal for all of us in the long run. A successful village simply cannot afford this kind of thinking, especially one that hopes to pick itself up out of the pieces left should the merry-go-round we’re currently living in, ‘all fall down’.

          And more on that POV as well, a bit later on.

          Thanks for steaming ahead; I’ll try to keep up!
          :) L/L

          • #8224
            On the BeachOn the Beach
            Participant

            Hi LL:

            I sit at your feet and will stay quiet while you impart knowledge. I don’t want a lion angry at us little rats.

            I never thought for 2 seconds about this entire issue of community until a couple years ago as a result of my 5 year re-education project. The first 3 years of that project left me unable to avoid the conclusion, and very very painfully reluctant to admit that every single thing I thought I knew about ‘CIVILIZATION’ was not only a lie, but a directly crafted lie meant to enslave. There was no other possible explanation for what I had learned.

            For me, the only path forward, as a man, a father and grandfather, and human being was to incorporate the very old knowledge left to me in my childhood into some new (for me) form of a sustainable small community. I grew up doing organic farming and that was an obvious place to consider starting. There is not a single possibility that this merry go round is going to avoid stopping catastrophically.

            So I read all sorts of stuff on the net about community building and decided most of it was nonsense. Nothing built in any tiny small way on any of the parts of Modernity can stand a chance of lasting. That legacy is a lie and toxic and will poison any attempt to use even a shred of it. So that left, in almost all cases, trying to review anthropological studies of the few existing ancient non-modern cultures and tribes left on earth. That also, in almost all cases, is a bust because they are all based on interpretations relating to Modernity.

            There are actually very few sources that try to really look deeply at what might be the characteristics of small communities that have existed intact for hundreds if not thousands of years.

            Dimitry Orlov is one.

            Leavergirl, Vera Bradova, is another.

            And in a sideways fashion, a neighbor of Zenscreamer, Antonio Dias is a third.

            I don’t include Dark Mountain in this list as it is a literary compilation, nor do I include Archdruid and Automatic Earth or preppers websites.

            These 3 resources are my main sources of critical alternative thinking, well outside of Modernity, but not inside primitivism, of characteristics of communities. Orlov ran a series and has a new recent book on the topic of ‘Communities that Abide”. Orlov and Bradova, since they grew up under communism, are deeply skeptical of any form of modern collectivism as models.

            And now I have a fourth resource: Lion Lady!

            I agree what what you have just written but must say that a management structure as you have described is difficult to achieve because it demands extremely high skill levels of the ‘elders’. As a project manager all my life I doubt that I have met 2 to 3 people who have the personal skills to perform ad hoc planning and management as you have described and do it effectively for all involved. Much less be able to see those management effects carried out into their generational results. Almost all management now is only task-result goal oriented since almost all assets are disposable. That sort of management certainly has no place in a community that intends to abide.

            I very much look forward to more from you.

            OtB

            • #8231
              LionLadyLionLady
              Participant

              OtB:

              “I sit at your feet and will stay quiet while you impart knowledge. I don’t want a lion angry at us little rats.”

              HUH?

              1. Phuleeeeze – no sitting at my feet! If you will recall, over on my now-closed earlier thread I said that anyone sitting there might easily get stepped on and that I wasn’t up for that kind of thing. Here – try one of these nice little carved stools I keep handy for visiting pundits/guests/etc. Much more comfy; you’ll be at eye-level and – your legs won’t go to sleep! :)

              2. ‘Rats!’ was a comment expressing my frustration/amusement that you got to my next point ‘WAY before me! Not calling anyone here ‘little rats’ at all nor sitting high and mightily above the masses. Lions & lambs ‘n all that, y’know – mice, too! Rats can and may apply for amnesty; we’re a full-service pride, here!

              I’m not claiming to be an authority about community creation but I will share about my experiences in this arena – mostly because I, too, have a major yen to help create a community experience that works – and perhaps even live there. I also agree with you that we are seriously gonna need something like this very, very soon.

              Over the past decade I have noticed that being able to create a real, viable community experience has become somewhat of a ‘holy grail’ for a lot of folks. Seems there’s an underlying sense of uneasiness about the pressing need for same. My point is really that most who have taken steps to do this are going about it from the wrong direction.

              I hear a lot of ‘We’re gonna buy some land, build this kind of infrastructure, lay down some rules – and then folks will pay to be a part of this.’ Not how it works, sad to say. Everyone thinks of this as something from which to make $$ – or make participants follow a program they, in their ultimate wisdom (hah), have designed based upon their own personal view of how Life works.That way lies a major fail.

              That’s why I said in my earlier post on this thread that the core story that drives the vision and is also the glue that holds it together, MUST come from a greater source than the participants or the location. It’s not a religion at all, but rather a realization that each being who is participating is part of a much greater, inter-connected whole. If that rock-solid fact isn’t a part of the mix right from the get-go, I don’t see success as a result.

              As for ‘management structure’ being an issue, I would like to respectfully direct your explorations over to the role of the sexes in determining the actions of the group. The Elders in most tribal cases are comprised of women over a specific age, to whom the community naturally turns for guidance. Elder males are often the ‘elder statesmen’ for the younger men and advisors to the chief.

              As in the example described about the ‘natural selection’ of a chief in the link provided in your earlier comment, such ‘Council of Grandmothers’ groups are usually self-selected by the entire community as women of wisdom and vision whose guidance is valuable and useful in sustaining the well-being of the entire group over time. The roles of men and women in traditional village/communal groups differ greatly – for a good reason.

              Men hunt game, guard and protect, pro-create, take up arms when needed to protect the group and its territory, are responsible for keeping order within the group and for enforcing the rules that govern the group. Women are responsible for infrastructure, for food-gathering (foraging), food preparation and processing, for bearing and raising children (usually collectively as it’s much easier that way), and for keeping an eye on the welfare of the groups resources, environment and group dynamics over the long haul.

              Women, by virtue of having a definite ‘stake’ in the upbringing of healthy children with awareness of their eventual roles and responsibilities within the group, are generally seen as the people most able to foresee what must be done to sustain and protect the longevity of the overall group – thus the Elders/Wisdomkeepers/Council of Grandmothers model found in so many successful (albeit now almost defunct due to ongoing interference from ‘civilization’) indigenous tribal groups. Such councils are really the seat of final decisions and are respected by the chiefs – and the shamans – for their far-seeing abilities to keep the group viable over several generations. These three elements: the chief (and his advisors), the shaman (who participates as needed but generally lives slightly apart from the community/village) and the Council of Elders (usually grandmothers or women past menopause) are the ‘management structure’ of indigenous community.

              I would submit that the management model you are used to interacting with is that of a business model only – not one designed as a role literally ‘in service’ to the well-being of the entire group. In the West (Modernity), management is a top-down model . . . and one in which I worked and ultimately participated for over a decade while still engaged in the world of corporate life – which I left when I came to my senses and realized that it was destroying not only my life, that the lives of all of the many folks who I had been ‘delegated’ to ‘manage’. That was over 25 years ago and I’m not sorry I no longer am engaged in that artificial world. So – the kind of rule of order we European-based Westerners call ‘management’ has no place in the world of integrated community.

              At least, not in my experience . . .

              So, please: no foot-sitting, no segregated rats and no worshipful staying quiet, kiddo! I want DIALOGUE! DISCUSSION! OPINIONS! JUICY THIS-AND-THAT back ‘n forth stuff. Otherwise, when I do shut up, it’ll only be the crickets talking back. And they aren’t particularly big on creating community . . .

              :) L/L

              • #8243
                On the BeachOn the Beach
                Participant

                Hi LL:

                Thank you for all of this.

                What is the role of the ‘chief’? External tribal relations? Final arbitrator in disputes?

                It seems to me that the women have too much to do and the men not enough. I would be concerned that idle men might lead to mischief internally or externally, especially in a more pastural or agrarian tribe versus a pure hunter/gatherer group.
                Lots of flexibility seems to be built in and very important.

                I see no reason why the sort of leadership and council system you are describing can not work for agrarian groups also, especially if land ownership is not a concern. It seems to me that the conversion of council groups into top down management systems probably has more to do with issues of ownership and predator psychopaths infiltrating the groups than any real reason that demands top down management systems.

                • #8244
                  LionLadyLionLady
                  Participant

                  Hi Again, OtB:

                  Excellent questions – and concerns.

                  It may take a day or so to address all of this – that’s quite a pithy group of items you’ve brought up, so I want to give it my full attention before I post anything.

                  When I do, I’m going to move over again to the left column for my response, since I want to maintain the ongoing ‘chapter’ approach to this discussion.

                  Thanks for your patience!!
                  :) L/L

    • #8272
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Hello to this group that has me by my heart-strings:

      I am deeply impressed that you guys are so motivated and directed here on this fertile ground for growth that’s been made available by TIF.

      Please accept, in advance, my apologies for comments that seem to come from antiquated and non-hip, non-current readings and events and just gently consider the source and the well meaning love within my observations. I not only love the directions that you are focused on and are ‘going’, but share them emotionally, philosophically and kinetically in my personal values and actions. All that I truly may have to offer are my personal energies and my sense of over-view from my experiences.

      I may start off as coming from somewhat shallow waters because of my old-time Texas way-of-looking that initially views any issue from a humorous point of view, so I’m diving right into shallow water with this observation. I am so warmly and fondly wrapped in a sense of familiarity with your, Lion Lady & OtB’s,  discussions here because of many, many hours that I have, in my own past, spent sitting with friends (kindred spirits) in a circle passing our version of the indigenous peace-pipe and contributing our energies into these very same issues. This was a quintessential element of the counter-culture 60’s which I took into my soul as something of true value that got applied to me as a new foundation from which to build my personal sense of direction and desires in life. You may look upon this as a group of dope smoking hippies, and that would be a correct, but shallow, generalization. We have been anonymous, but we are legion (to co-opt a concept), and I am asking to join in with you from this point and place of my time.

      What I am gathering from your above writings is the grappling with the same issue that we grappled with using slightly different words. Our foundational tenant for any degree of success, got accepted as being called, how we said it then, was ‘common goal’. The thought that came to me as I read your above contributions was ‘communal goal’, and when viewed with abilities to interject multidimensional energies into this ‘communal’ conceptualizing, is to me the ‘whole new ballgame’ that could spring forth as a rhyming of history.

      From an old hippy, re-located into an indigenous ‘commun-ity’ on the outer fringes of the Valdivian galaxy, whose dream has been to quit beating my head against the walls of TPTB, settle into a ‘commun-ity’ that is already, to varying degrees, outside TPTB.  And here, wherever that ‘here’ is for us individually,  incorporate multidimensional energies to empower, first, these already ‘awake to who the enemy is’ communities as being the most fertile grounds of least resistance, for whatever new structures can be developed most easily (by drawing from their already established traditions) and increasing the potential for success of the survival of the values that we seem to be trying to embrace as our contribution. I have been a non-suicidal warrior against TPTB for decades. I do not take this lightly.

      What also has come to me as to the ‘how’ of settling into an already established commun-ity that I mentioned above, is to do it utilizing multidimensional energies for HEALING. This would be a more universally accepted, i.e., least resisted, entree for the most rapid expansion of centers for the regeneration of those values that I feel ‘we’ are seeking, in order to counteract the ‘whatever it is’ we may be fleeing, or at least resisting.  And by doing this within centers, or areas, already ‘outside’ of TPTB influences, but established and functioning, helps to not have to re-invent the wheels of community, but to quantumly re-model those wheels .

      Your thoughts on this?

      Love, Glynn

      • #8273
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hello, Glynn:

        On the Beach and I began to discuss this subject quite awhile back and agreed that, once his ‘Antidote’ essay series was launched, we’d tackle this subject (one dear to both our hearts) . . . albeit from differing positions re: how to go about corralling the beast and taking an objective look at a wide range of approaches to community-building. I’m still noodling along over his recent questions and will be posting responses to them as soon as I feel they are ready for ‘real-time’ viewing.

        That said, I am very happy to have you step into this discussion – especially from the kind of direct experience you want to bring to the table re: the challenges of entering into an already-existing community model – and how to most successfully integrate your Self into same.

        Yours is a really complex approach to this subject given there is such a wide variety of existing core community models out there – but it would certainly be useful to offer up some workable examples of successfully becoming a part of an existing group, i.e. something for readers to experiment with. I like the idea of focusing on healing as a means to integrate. That would be a lovely gift to offer into a new communal group! I would also be very interested to hear as we go along about the workable ways you have found to become a part of an already-existing whole. I think that would be extremely helpful to a lot of people who don’t want to start a community . . . but would LOVE to join one.

        For me, attempting to course-correct an already-existing community is a much, much bigger challenge to take on than starting over from scratch – and an uphill battle at that – though, of course, it is always possible to shift a vision. However, I’ve found through years of exploring and studying this subject that existing community models within what OtB terms ‘Modernity’ are generally based upon the philosophy, rules and vision of a single person – or a small group of confederates – who have created a plan (a common goal) that is designed from a socio-political POV rather than one that is from a greater ‘height’ if you will.

        My initial purpose for this discussion was to focus on the ‘from-scratch’ principles that make for a workable on-the-ground group experience over a long period of time. And, I do want to re-invent the wheel here, Glynn. I want to explore something completely outside of current community models, something based upon my own experiences in a world of long-lived indigenous village models from Africa – since that is where I can legitimately anchor my own perception of what works, as I’ve seen it in action and personally participated. And, yes: It. Does. Work.

        I also have friends from the Native American world, and that’s been an excellent venue for me as well for exploring village-style community vision. Adding that to my former work with my teachers towards bringing the African village-style communal structure to America awhile back, I wanted to write this thread from a synthesis of my experiences in both our modern world and it’s definition of community versus that of a much older mind-set as a starting point for further discussion.

        The core purpose model I want to explore exists eternally, above the human fray. No one owns it; no one designed it or enforces it – it just IS, like Nature and the natural flow of living on this planet through conscious participation. That is the spiritual model I am positing . . . because that is what has successfully driven indigenous models for millennia. Identifying what that is and how to engage with it on behalf of a copacetic group of people is where I’m attempting to head in all of this.

        This ‘guiding principle’ must come from something greater than the individuals in a group since it is something which must set the core behavioral ‘tone’ for everyone, no matter who they are or what their personal agendas or levels of awareness may be. Otherwise, it will be pre-empted and re-directed into something for personal gain further down the road. Heck – even when it’s based upon something higher and greater than the human drama, it still gets hijacked on occasion by those who see potential profit in doing so – unless the group is damned vigilant about preventing that from occurring.

        My preference is to fold ‘the old ways’ – at least in terms of human values and relationships – in to the current ‘mash’ we have to work with in terms of in-falling cultural collapse and its likely aftermath. Once this collapse happens, nothing modern will be going anywhere soon – until we regain a sense of respect, mutual consideration, patience and cooperation with others and begin to re-introduce contemporaries to the value, joy and pleasure of doing it ‘the old-fashioned way’.

        When we can again ‘express ourselves as fully as possible'(Maslow, I believe) while at the same time holding that ‘the good of the many outweighs the good of the few – or the One’ (Spock) we will be moving towards a working revival of how humans lived with one another successfully for millennia. There must be a balance between these two spectrum-bookends of the human experience: the group versus the individual. Without both in the mix, neither will work for long. That middle-ground dance is where this discussion lives and breathes.

        Do jump in and share your thoughts, wisdom, experience – whatever. It’s an open pool with lots of room for others to join in. That is what I’d hoped for since a single voice is simply talking to itself . . . and thus heading nowhere. Let’s all dish on, and find a workable direction for this over time – together.

        :) LionLady

      • #8277
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        Hi Glynn:

        Ditto everything LL just said in her reply to you.

        I would happily welcome any participation from you or anyone else on this topic of community building. It is so important for us and for our future.

        Personally, in my plans of what I want to do here in PI, we will start with sustainable organic farming and outreach that to the larger community. Then quickly follow farming with community health care outreach. There is so much need here. Inside the core community there will be little difference between farming and health. In my mind they are almost the same thing if properly considered and done.

        One question though. I was not aware that one could use the words ’60’s’ – ‘Hippie’ – and ‘Texas’ all in the same sentence at one time.? When I got there in 1970 it seemed pretty 1870’s to me. Hippies were regularly shorn and crucified in Houston in those dark days.

        OtB

    • #8282
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Od’B:

      You got me on that, I quickly left Texas, and went to Haight/Ashbury by way of Carmel Valley, breathing (inhaling) much more easily!

      OK, from above re; entering existing communities: SO far, from my experience down here, every community will be expecting you to contribute something practical and tangible as a skill or service, over and above that you will be spending some money there, at least initially.

      Place, or environment will be the large factor as to the perceived value, quality and longevity of all communities, i.e., climate, seashore, mountainous surroundings, touristy, cultural, density of population, remoteness from services….. These factors will be key influences of the kinds of people that are already there, attracted to, or can settle into and thrive, and in what numbers or with what turnover. For me, these factors became more and more important because they are more fixed and outside the influence of any negotiated or political environment established within a compound. I found it nigh on impossible to escape having the LIE sucking away energy outside of strongly indigenous centric areas. Probably because of the money part of the LIE, and the most abused get by with the least reliance on that. And the strong indigenous identity as also resisted the LIE of religion.

      Where does that leave us? At a place where very few outsiders are accepted or encouraged, so we must deal with what it is we are truly looking for within ourselves and that ‘within ourselves’ is our spirit

      One advantage that shopping existing communities is that you can evaluate what you are getting into and how your spirit is responding to that known. It’s like picking a new dog. You can go with a puppy hoping that you can control it’s maturation with certain given costs such as chewed up precious treasures or shop more developed dogs with a greater sense of getting more immediate gratification by seeing what you are getting. WOW, that sounded like we are looking at the difference between how a female spirit approaches this decision process from how a male spirit might. I think that I suddenly am in over my head as to who’s in charge of the what, when, where and how – so lets get back to just plain spirit.

      As to course correcting an existing community, that seems like a lot of energy that could be spent on your own spiritual core as long as you are spiritually in tune with the environmental part of place and can find sufficient spiritual balance potential with an existing community and focus your energy on your contribution(s) perhaps by example only. Remember, no expectations….no disappointments.

      Lets also try to keep in mind the most macro of environments; – the whole world situation seemingly coming to perhaps unimaginable changes and that best laid plans of mice and men and all that. As Od’B has said to me, …”be gentle with yourself(ves)”

      Maybe the organism of ‘community’ is not one that can be pre- anythinged, each individual has to approach it decision by decision and all primarily based on cellular acceptance of decisions made by spirit coming from a place of knowing. That sounds good to me. What is working now is my acceptance that I have been, in all my past, unaccepting of my singularity with every aspect of my environment and am at this late date, having decided what environmental zone I want to explore by living in and while there, work to solve common(-unity) problems that obviate themselves – almost always by time exposure!

      I think that I just echoed 4 or 5 of your paragraphs above, and also, all those gods know that I’ve seen my fair share of hijackings, but we just cannot live our lives in fear. Just think of those possibilities as opportunities to taste the sweet wine of revenge if that becomes any reality that I’m involved with, even if ‘just’ by friendship.

      So, from what you wrote above Lion Lady, and you seconded Od’B, what is it you guys want that you don’t feel that you already have (besides the slam-dunk roadmap that I want too). Lets play with those toys next. ….and don’t Bogart that joint!!

      Glynn

    • #8298
      LionLadyLionLady
      Participant

      Hi, OtB, Glynn – and anyone else who has been hiking along with us on this one –

      Well – it took me a LOT longer than a day or two to work this progression out. Thanks for your collective patience. Here we go:

      There are several items in my prior post that OtB pointed to as needing further clarification – or as issues that must be addressed as key to maintaining a successful group ‘adventure’. After writing and writing my response, I suddenly realized I was creating the Great American Community-Creation novella here, so have stopped and re-thunk this.

      Let’s work it this way: Here’s the part of my longer post regarding the role of a chief in an indigenous village/community structure. In a few days, I will follow with a similar item regarding the role of men vs. women in same; later, I’ll post regarding land ownership and how Modernity has altered our perceptions of what constitutes real leadership versus the top-down management model we are currently so familiar with. That keeps all of this in manageable ‘chunks’ to chew over. More as we go . . .

      And now, without further ado – or delay – I give you:

      The Role of a Chief
      (note: some groups had women chiefs, so this isn’t restricted to male ‘stuff’)

      A chief provides a focal point for the entire group. S/He isn’t its ‘boss’ or ‘manager’ or ‘director’; rather, s/he represents the core principles by which the group functions, as embodied in a single being, for both maintaining the day-to-day of the group and representing the group when interacting with other communities/groups/tribes or villages.

      Being a chief puts tremendous responsibility onto this single individual, meaning that the careful selection of such a representative by the entire group – and I do mean entire – is essential to the long-term well-being of the community. Most who become chiefs have risen to this role through hard work on behalf of their village or tribal group and are already deeply respected due to their personal honor, integrity, trustworthiness and their ability to use a lifetime of wisdom and diplomacy to execute their role successfully.

      A chief embodies the enforcement of the decisions made by community Elders after consulting with the shaman(s) and him/herself – but only after having had a very long period of input from every single member of their community on the matter, usually in a group setting. That includes children and even marginal members as well – no one is left out.

      (By the way, this fact is one of the great contributors to confidence and self-respect [as opposed to self-aggrandizement] in children and youth while they are growing up within this kind of structure. They are listened to and respected for their views and insights. That doesn’t mean that they are indulged – at least past a certain point. Later, we’ll take a look at group discipline in such communities – and how well that works, especially regarding those who ‘act-out’ beyond what is tolerated.)

      Once a chief is chosen, he/she is still on probation, if you will, as there is no kicking-back and taking it easy once one is s/elected. Any ‘perks’ that go along with the job are there to help the leader be the best they can be, not to allow them to lord it over the rest of the group. This is when his or her character comes into play and s/he will be observed and evaluated every day as to the appropriateness of his/her selection and how well s/he is carrying it out. Most who become chiefs do so with great reluctance as they truly know how difficult and complex this job really is.

      Please know: what I am outlining here is an ideal of structure; of course chiefs and shamans and Elders are still human, with human foibles and failings. And that is why no single person is ever allowed to run the show all on their own – each of these roles of responsibility require feedback, support and input from others who are also in roles of responsibility albeit in different areas of the community structure. When someone ‘falls off the wagon’ of their role – no matter who they are – they are watched closely, advised on course-correction and then monitored carefully to see if they do succeed in righting themselves. If not, then it’s time to convene, make a carefully-thought-through group decision and inform the person in question that they are going to be replaced – and why that is so.

      Chiefs can be removed and replaced at any time when the Elders agree that the community as a whole is not being served properly. This isn’t done by whim or politics or personality conflict – it is done after great deliberation, in order to safeguard the welfare of the entire group over time.

      There. Now we’re one step closer to coving the myriad of items OtB, in his wisdom, called forth as worthy of further exploration/explanation.

      Best!
      L/L

      • #8312
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        Hi @LL:

        My first impression of your description is how wonderful this is since it seems to me that from the very first instant of the selection process for these special leaders, be they chiefs or elders, is always grown from their own deep interests in serving their community. The exact opposite of our normal top down social structures and organizations. They all seem to understand that the power and survival of their community comes primarily from their being able to flatten the pyramid structure while holding as much meritocracy and egalitarianism in all the members of the community as possible.

        I can imagine a group of people existing that have these values, desires and expectations of themselves in relation to their community. There are always one or two in any community I have known. I can not imagine how to get to the point of a functioning group like you are describing when starting with people nurtured and conditioned under the Lies of Modernity.

        That gulf seems so large as to be beyond my imagination how it can be crossed.

        OtB

        • #9082
          LionLadyLionLady
          Participant

          Hi, OtB:

          To address this statement from your above comment:

          I can imagine a group of people existing that have these values, desires and expectations of themselves in relation to their community. There are always one or two in any community I have known. I can not imagine how to get to the point of a functioning group like you are describing when starting with people nurtured and conditioned under the Lies of Modernity.

          Yes. In every attempted community creation story there are always a handful of enlightened community members who get the big picture vision and act accordingly from the beginning. For me, these are the ‘seed sowers’ of this potentiality. Modeling for others by being an Elder who holds their integrity of behavior as a yardstick for community functionality is essential. So, no – it cannot be done if there are not these kinds of people involved. But usually they ARE present to some degree; the trick, if you will, is for them to step up to the plate and take on the responsibility of standing for what is workable, on a daily basis and, by doing so, helping others not so ‘clued in’ to get up to speed.

          Serious motivation on the part of the yet-to-be-fully-participant non-players also has to be there in order for them to make the leap and get on board with the community program/vision being espoused by such Elders. A willingness to learn and grow into relationship, for whatever reason, would be essential. If people are not motivated then of course nothing will occur.

          I do happen to believe that there will come a time when belonging to a viable community may become one of the most sought-after situations available to humans going through the crumble/collapse upcoming. All the focus today on tangibles will pale when individuals realize that they simply cannot survive this huge shift without finding common cause with others, and doing it in such a way that they strengthen the group by their presence and contributions into the group, thus also protecting themselves in the process.

          We really aren’t islands, here – though we’ve been sold on how important it is to keep our individuality at all costs since that precious commodity is under attack from so many sides today. This situation reminds me of the game where two people lean into one another and push as hard as they can; the more they push the more they hold each other up – but if one suddenly steps away, the other falls down – HARD. We are really pushing now, against the forces that seek to destroy our uniqueness. Perhaps we are pushing a bit too hard and not stepping away from that engagement in order to re-think the whole scenario. This is something I would heartily recommend: stepping back and realizing that any extreme is a position of weakness. Too much togetherness and we melt away as individuals; too much individualism and we become isolated, brittle and rigid, i.e. very easily broken and beaten when push comes to shove and we suddenly find we need help or support.

          Humans weren’t designed to be one or the other; individuality and togetherness are shifting and interwoven facets of being alive with others, something that is always in motion and always changing its stripes. So, my posit is that when we realize that we MUST find a way to interact successfully with others in order to stay alive, we will do so – enthusiastically. That is where I place my hope in this one – and the pylons for building that bridge to cross that gulf that lies beyond your imagination.

          Cheers! L/L

    • #8351
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Lion Lady:

      I can’t help but sense that we are all looking at this from gigantically big, broad and bold perspectives but that our approaches to achieving this are wonderfully different.

      I was enthralled with your posting and it has bubbled up in my alleged consciousness a number of times. I think that you took a long first step in answering your question about why deal with established communities as opposed to starting afresh and informed, at least to me you did.

      Lion Lady, you darling, you -where among your peers/peeps are you going to find people who will sustainably react and feel and think like African, Native American or any other relatively remote ( least effected by modernity) tribal group other than that person in your mirror?  Now, I’m sure that there are several more just like that person in your mirror in the world and if anybody could bring them together you could. And, if you do, I want to marry your cat just to hang around in your kitchen. Because what you wrote was LOVELY to read. So count me in for a ticket on that ride, even if it’s a far rear seat.

      On d’ Beach, you too, you darling, you ! Start small, do what you love, lead by example. Be able to change easily, then do it again, or something else. Your Big Guys said the key was in the doing. Did they say bigger was better?

      You guys are already applying this to solving the worlds problems, who’s gonna’ clean the toilets?

      You two are also very easy to love.

       

       

       

      • #8428
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hey there, Glynn:

        As for all that happy delight you’re busy spreading around over here, well – Right back at ‘cha, guy! You are a delight to have in the fray and I’m so happy you’re over here mixing it up with OtB ‘n moi. Much more fun that way, yes?

        As for the “Where in the hell are you gonna find folks from ‘Modernity’ who can measure up to the high standard set by the indigenous in terms of conscious community creation?” – well, I have a story to share about that a bit further down the road.

        It can be done – I helped my teachers do exactly that back in 2007, in a week-long deep-intensive, immersion workshop they held and I assisted at, in upstate NY. We had 18 participants, only two of which knew one another, ages varied from 15 to 72, and these folks came from all over the place. Total disparity to start with.

        What we came out with in the end, was a miracle.

        More on that later, when I can give it the attention it deserves. Hugs to you, dear friend – keep on bringing that marvelous heart-felt energy to the party.

        :) L/L

    • #8437
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Hello Lion Lady:

      When I was cogitating on that subjects question to you, I felt a tug on me somewhere that made me qualify it with what I said. OK, so now I’m patting my pockets to locate my ticket to ride, because now we’re are talking ‘miracles’ and from where I’m sitting, that’s what it’s going to take, and that’s what makes me feel very positive at just this moment.

      So let me cast out another experience in my past that I feel is a necessary component for this kind of ride. I am the newby and least experienced in the ‘miracle’ field, but I am experienced, so please bear with me (Texans only know how to talk around a bush to define it without rudely calling a spade a f**king shovel).

      When I made my commitment to throw away convention and seek my personal expansion into the realm of miracles to deal with my cancer, I began with shot-gunning for ‘answer’ and that took a couple-o’-three years, but finally an intuitive in upstate NY, that had studied under Jane Roberts, with Seth,  took me on and I got an ‘answer’. Read ‘goal’. I wasn’t prepared with my physical conditioning of 60 years to deal with the ‘answer’, that I “believed that I deserved to die” and so I jerked myself around in so many ways including discounting the intuitive and what she had said. But, earlier on with her, I had asked her for how-to’s, and she had recommended 2 books to me, one of which I had read early on. But when I got so frustrated after months turned into years of my ego negating her and her advise and me finally sitting in my room alone in a big farm house on a remote farm in south central Brasil having read every ‘how to’ book in my collected ‘how-to’ library, except the second book that the intuitive lady had recommended, did I begrudgingly read it. It turned out to be Seth’s self proclaimed  ‘how to’ book that he had dictated to Jane Roberts 50 years earlier for us mortals to have in hand, that allowed my expansion to explode, in an instant, beyond my ego to my miracle of the cancer disappearing.

      I want to address 2 points from this long-winded dissertation that I feel are germain to a solving of this challange we are choosing:

      First: That “How-to’s” are tools that need to be in the tool-kit of any solution seeker, and that the tool maker needs their tools out there in as many kits as possible for the seekers to have ‘at-hand’ when they are ready for the tool, not waiting for the tool manufacturer’s agent to decide if they are ready or not. So, lets open up a little on the pooling of our tool supplies and maybe that will accelerate how effectively we arrive at our sought-after solutions, collectively or individually. And I want to acknowledge that we have the Cog’s to thank for whatever opportunities come of this meeting of magic that may emerge.

      Second: That magic is the tool that is needed for this solution and that we are the seekers that are qualified to use these types of tools, acknowledged that some much more than others, but we all have experience in magic, which makes us magicians, so instead of re-definning the ‘goal’ for an umptheenth time, lets reach into our tool box for the action item tools that are prescribed to us from the source of all magic.

      Do I find any agreement about this, or am I flying solo here?

      • #9269
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hi, Glynn:

        A ‘newbie’ in the field of miracles? LOL, my good man: YOU’RE a walking miracle, given the marvelous story you’ve shared with us here about your own battle (and I call it that for a reason) with cancer and your current well-being. You know from direct experience what it takes to turn one’s boat all the way around, and that makes you totally qualified in my book to be showing others how it’s done. My teachers emphasized that we must NEVER teach what we have not already mastered ourselves and always from a position of empowering the student, NOT ourselves, in the process. I think you are already, by simply contributing here, doing just that. :)

        Your ‘How-To’s’ and tool-box comments are right on the money. I’ve worked on two VERY detailed master plans for physical/infrastructure/philosophical community models that were intended, once refined and the kinks worked out, for wide distribution and establishment all around the globe.

        The planners of these models were well-aware that collaboration and input from those with long-time experience in the specific areas being worked on, not just superficial ‘expertise’ but dirt-under-the-nails kinds of experience and knowledge, plus the wisdom of age, all added up to a plan that had a much greater chance of success than one built on cloud-castles of opinion and idealism. All of us felt the push to contribute what we knew as we could feel the need for this becoming a pressing matter – one we all wanted to leave behind us as a legacy for others, especially those younger and wanting something more meaningful to Life than what our current ‘situations’ have spread out before us.

        I used to mentor young people (still do, within my family) and community was THE most important concept they all wanted to be part of. Enthusiasm, idealism, energy, hard work and new ideas were what they brought to the table . . . but they couldn’t bring the lifetime of experience that a mentor/advisor/hands-on expert could add to that mix. I’m not saying that young people lack the ability to achieve things like this – but from my own experience, they also needed someone to bounce ideas off of, who had ‘been there before’ and could help them think things through more thoroughly and course-correct as necessary. That was wonderful work and I met some amazing young people during those years, people who I know will be making a big difference in our world. But – we ‘oldsters’ have a few tricks left up our sleeves – and this business of collaborating on a really elegant and workable community model is one that would definitely benefit big-time from such ‘miracles’ being pulled out of our sleeves and laid on the worktable.

        To your second point: ‘That magic is the tool that is needed’. I agree – but wouldn’t term it ‘magic’. That’s a bit too man-made/fool-the-eye for me as a term and also has some of the less-than-savory aspects going on right now out there with our predator visitors. Soooo – how about we choose something a bit less freighted with prior meaning? Instead of being a magician, I’d feel more comfy with being a ‘creator’ or ‘initiator’ on this stuff. Let me know what pops up for you in terms of . . . terms. :)

        Beyond that, again – spot-on, my friend. It’s the folks who’ve ‘seen the elephant’ who can contribute truly pithy content to this project, if you will. We know how NOT to end up with missing fingers and other necessary parts of the equation in the wielding of such tools and can mentor others in same. I do think this is already going on at this site in general, and definitely in our discussions here on this Forum. And, as you know, the shaman in a village is always ‘in’ and available – that’s the spiritual/miracle piece in the mix. I’ve discussed chiefs, women’s, and men’s roles so far; next, I’m going after the land ownership question from OtB . . . and then on to the raising of children/mentoring and last, but not least, to the Elders and the Shaman’s roles in this mix. Once all of these pieces are on the table, let’s dive into the aspect that you are eager to explore – it’s certainly pertinent – even central – to this entire discussion.

        :) L/L

    • #8839
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Hello Lion Lady:

      A fortnight has passed and I am still thinking about this forum and would like to say that having guidance from ‘other’ aside  – plan B is how do we behave without it? Within my alleged mind, I have been seeing that you seemed to be looking ahead with your infinite female wisdom to the possibility of a total reset being required, and if so, what might that look like, as a better/best working model?

      Please allow me, if appropriate, to reset my responses in hopes of becoming more in tune with you about this. From my experience there are 2 main necessities, first; matriarchal and second; small/local.

      I am reminded of a video sequence that I saw years ago shot in Africa, that was tracking a pride of lions, and in their territory was also a pack of hyenas. It showed the daily life of the lions with the females doing all the work and the male enjoying his leisure. One day, the pack of hyenas cornered a lone female and were working her down when the bushes nearby exploded and the male lion burst in under full power, and hyenas began flying as he flung them left and right and shook them like rags.

      There aren’t many human men like that, but there are some few worth latching onto, and I would venture a third necessity as possibly the inclusion of one of those men. Please excuse any obvious maleness in this or any of my other replies.

      Blessings of kindness,

      Glynn

      • #8846
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hello, Glynn:

        My bad. :(

        Life has thrown, yet again, a speedy succession of deadlines, demands and necessary distractions in my path back to this thread. However – within the next few days there will again be a big light at the end of the current tunnel – and it will no longer be a trainload of fruit and produce bearing down on me! LOL! We had a huge orchard fruitfest this year (it’s a 100-year-old orchard with over a hundred trees and most were producing like mad), so we pretty much dropped everything so as not to miss the bumper crop. Now, it’s tailing off and I can act like a nice, decent human/lion again.

        Like Mrs. C., I, too, will be chucking tomatoes over railings in the very near future! However, amidst all of the canning frivolity, I am also trying mightily to continue to crank smartly along on editing OtB’s remaining essays. Just finishing my work on Essay 8, with 4 more waiting (snorting away at me, actually) in the wings for my attentions. Whew. OtB has really put me through my paces with this series but it’s been grand to see the interest and response. Great stuff, isn’t it? :)

        You’re lovely to be so patient and to make such worthy contributions and food for thought. I absolutely DO intend to respond to both your posts – as well as keep my promise to OtB about the next item in this punch list of his own questions – which, incidentally, dovetail wonderfully with your most recent chain of thought re: the role of men in all of this plus the spiritual side.

        So, as Arnold said: “AhhhhlbeBAAAAAAAcK!” Promise. Just a few more pears/apples/grapes etc. to can/dry/give away . . . and I can return, as has Mrs. Cog, to the land of the non-canning unwashed and set my furry butt down here for awhile – especially as the Forum thread intros now seem to have returned from the land of the dead and are revivified/present. Whoopee!!!! (Cartwheels)

        Stay tuned; I promise to be back here asap to answer/discuss everything. Don’ go away! :)
        LionLady

      • #9272
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hi, Glynn:

        Plan B? Nope. It’s gotta be Plan A. The ‘Other’ side, as we are all now very aware from OtB’s masterful essays, is simply present, no matter what. It’s us who need to wipe our lenses off and start really looking at who/what we truly are and what we’re actually working with . . . which is MIRACLES up the gazingy! We have a toolbox extraordinaire sitting at our feet and we’ve simply been too blind to recognize it. Without what you’ve termed ‘the other side’, we will fail. And – it’s really NOT ‘other’ – it’s always right here with us all the time. My own intimate connection with what I call ‘Upstairs’ has gone on all my life so for me, it’s nothing new. For others, it will be a new and scary and exciting adventure to tap into what each of us really is, i.e. our ‘greater Selves’ and begin to create from that place. How can we lose when we do THAT? Break out the toolbox!:)

        As for the ‘total re-set’ issue, I have to agree with OtB about what’s coming. And also with Morpheus, who is doing a bang-up job of filling all of us here at TIF in on what to really pay attention to, above all the distracting dust-ups going on all around us right now. The Big Picture is where to stay focused and TIF is a perfect place to keep one’s finger on the pulse of what really counts when the chips fall down. And, they are going to. I’ve been shown things in my younger days about where this is all going; so have friends of mine who are ‘WAY more prescient than I am and they’ve been shown similar things. So, note-comparing for decades has given me a sense of things that are a compilation of the insights/visions/homework of a lot of people with a ‘gift’. This isn’t just coming from my own, insular vision of things, but from a wide range of visionaries. BTW, these aren’t folks from the ‘net – they’re folks met throughout my life, personally, and the conversations are NOT online ones.

        Short answer, after that more lengthy response? Yep: a cyclical Re-set for sure. The question is, as always, WHAT? WHEN? HOW? The ‘WHO’ and ‘WHY’ questions are, for me, a LOT less important for the general populace. At that point, it really won’t matter much. We’ll all be pretty busy figuring out how to ride the sucker out and still be standing when it heads out of town.

        Regarding the two ‘necessities’ you point out – matriarchal and small/local. Well-spotted! as they say in African safari lingo. Both are key elements that were dumped from the equation a LONG time ago – and need to be folded back in before the recipe works correctly. The other missing element is responsibility to/for others in the group. This sounds simple but it really is hugely powerful stuff that is the real ‘glue’ that holds the mix together, kind of like gluten (which has gotten a bum rap of late) does in a loaf of bread.

        Without personal responsibility within a group, it simply will not hold up. That is a discussion for a bit later, when I write more about land ownership, mentoring, children and then shamans and Elders. Also, it was THE ‘miracle’ part of that community-creation experience I alluded to a few comments ago. And yes – I WILL tell that story; but over on the ‘Stories, Stories, Stories’ thread, right after I talk about my Maasai friend Kepaluli. We’ll brew up a pot of tea – or something stronger (maybe some homemade ‘brew’, African-style) and have a story-telling around the fire, someday soon. Promise!

        I LOVED your Lion Story! Thank you!!! Yeah – that’s how it works in a pride. The male looks like a total slug and ‘the girls’ do all the hard work . . . until the pride is in danger. Then, WATCH OUT! Most animals won’t risk pissing off a mature male lion. And, male lions battling one another for dominance is epic. I’ve seen one and it was SCARY. These guys go for broke and frequently the loser ends up dead or so crippled he doesn’t survive for long. It’s an all-out job only size and power and smarts can win, so that’s how he earns his keep. I’ve also seen huge males babysit the tiniest of cubs with incredible gentleness and patience as their faces, paws and tail are attacked, chewed and climbed over by a whole pile of babies – and they do nothing to hurt the little ones other than gently move them away from their more, ahem, vulnerable working parts. :)

        As for men who would do such things for their own ‘pride’ – I would politely disagree that they are thin on the ground. I’ve met many, especially in Africa. A man who either cannot or will not stand up for and protect his family or his children – or his partner – needs to take a hard look at why he’s even breathing. Men are genetically equipped for this kind of work and have been for aeons. To avoid that fact is to deny what one is. Same for women denying their basic abilities and responsibilities. Having grown up with and waded through the morass of ‘women’s lib’ throughout my life, I have a very different ‘take’ on its merits/demerits than maybe most women – but I will stand by them. In times to come, we are going to have to take a hard look at how far we’ve dragged ourselves socially from what works in the mix when all the goodies are gone, it’s ‘put up or shut up’ time and our collective behinds are on the line. Women have always on occasion been fierce warriors because they have something to fight for: the future (the children). Men need to begin to remember this fact as well. It’s not about money, property, power or possessions – it’s about the future. When I hear politicians wave the ‘It’s for the Children’ banner, I want to smack them. They are co-opting something sacred for their own crap agendas. Disgusting.

        So – there you have it; spit directly from the Lion’s lips – my own rant regarding the missing matriarchal puzzle piece – and what to do about it. The Elder piece is another item that is sorely abused these days – but that is, again, for another discussion.

        To close – small/local IS beautiful – and the only way any village works. You get more than 150 or so people together, and the mechanism falls apart. It requires every single person personally knowing every other person in their integrated group and having a personal stake in their well-being, both individually and collectively. Anything larger and people are too separated from each other to have a vested interest in each other’s welfare. It just gets too big. Now, an expanded yet connected network of villages, each of a size under 150 people – THAT works. I’ve seen it. It’s something the Zulus did very successfully when they kicked the British Empire’s fat behind back in the early 1800’s. A very interesting story, that . . .

        Hope that opens a few doors for future discussions on these aspects of community, Glynn. Thanks for bringing them to the table!

        :) L/L

    • #9080
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Hello Lion Lady:

      Just a quick visit to leave a link that I stumbled across  fyi and potential for future discussin’;  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuta

      thots of kindness to all,

      Glynn

      • #9267
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hello, Glynn:

        Yes – I am still on my feet and scratching away, here – but soon to be without the computer etc. for several days due to a much-needed OS upgrade (the cause of my less-than-stellar presence around here of late) – the system keeps throwing me offline, the wi-fi doesn’t work right and my partner’s brand-new iPad wants to hog the satellite all to its wee self. So – I’m gonna get ’em all sorted out tomorrow. I should have them back by the weekend (Gawd willin’ ‘n the creek don’ rise) so will be back aboard then.

        Now – first on my to-do list today, before all this lovely stuff goes away, is Y-O-U, dear friend. You’ve waited long enough for my frazzled attentions! First off: WHAT an interesting link, above! I’m very curious about these folks. We’ll have to discuss them when I get back, okay? I’d like your thoughts on their system, before I comment and add mine – if that’s all right with you?

        There are a lot of little pockets of mindful, nature-based groups still alive on this planet – just tucked far, far away from the madding crowd, thank heavens! I know of several in South America, but much further north from you. Also, there are groups in Asia as well as in the far North, Siberia, northern Scandinavia, and some other spots. Would be interesting to do a little ‘tour’ of them, online and see what we can see . . . Up for it?

        Now – to your prior questions. Not going to be the very lengthy answers I’d intended, but I’m determined NOT to wait any longer to respond to your comments/questions. OtB does say I needn’t be QUITE so lengthy/detailed in my answers, so I will gratefully bow to his superior wisdom on this one and not talk your ear off.

        Hug!
        L/L

    • #9083
      LionLadyLionLady
      Participant

      Hello, All:

      OK. Enough waiting, already – here’s my next (long-awaited I’m sure) post in response to OtB’s query regarding the seeming inequality between the work done by women and that taken on by the males in an indigenous group. There’s a lot more I could say about this, but for the sake of moving this conversation forward, I’m going to post this, ‘as-is’ for now . . . and fill in any blanks that may be pointed out to me, at a later time. Next, I hope to address his query about land ownership. But for now, let’s just chew on this for awhile:

      The Role of Men:

      Yes, OtB; women in this model do have a lot to do; but truly, in their own way no more than men have. From a very young age until formal initiation, each male child is in the care of either an older uncle or grandfather – or male authority figure – who is personally responsible for seeing that this young individual is both supported in becoming his authentic self – and for helping him learn how to use this knowledge and experience for the improvement of the overall group. The role of biological parents in such groups is much different than what we consider normal here in ‘Modernity’. In this village community model, their job is to do their own work to the fullest of their abilities, leaving the raising of children to the group and to their extended family members, especially grandparents, uncles and aunties.

      BTW, of late I have noticed denigrating comments on the internet in response to the use by Hilary Clinton of the phrase “It takes a village to raise a child.”, dissenters assuming that comment to mean socialized child-rearing. It is not. That phrase is absolutely an African aphorism – it DOES take an entire village, if it is done correctly, since everyone has a hand in forming the world view of such a child, who is in turn able to learn from everyone else as he or she is growing up. What an amazingly rich and mature approach to the creation of an emotionally healthy, able and confident young person this concept really is in actuality. So please – when you hear that phrase, put it into its true context.

      For young men, learning how to behave well, how to successfully undertake responsible jobs such as herding cattle or goats or sheep or whatever, how to successfully hunt – first small game and then larger prey – and thus growing eventually into the role of a young, functional and contributing male member of the group is a full-time job for the older male members. There is no formal school, other than the School of Life, and that is taught by those who have the experience to do so, not by those who have a degree or a piece of paper that says they supposedly know directly about what they are teaching.

      Many men have trades that they have learned from their families or from a mentor, and so they are busy working at that skill – and teaching it to others who show an aptitude for it. Older men sit in their own councils, often called ‘war councils’ although they are really more about maintaining order in the village, dealing with outsiders or other villages and, in times of possible conflict, deciding how to address the problem of waging warfare. Note: The decision to wage war, either in defense of a community or offensively to perhaps protect valuable foraging or harvesting areas from encroachment by others, is actually decided on by the women Elders in many cases – and then handed off to the war council for planning and execution.

      For men in general, there is plenty to do: hunting requires groups for safety and efficiency – it isn’t an individually expressed skill. Hunting parties range widely and are often days away from the village while gathering meat. That means that the younger members of the hunting party are responsible for learning how to field-dress the game, protect it while doing so, and prepare it for transport back to the village for distribution and preservation. Some groups include women as those who handle the field-dressed carcasses, but often this is delegated to the younger men.

      In an agrarian society, the added need for strong field workers, those who clear land for crops and those tasked with guarding perimeters means that men are busy from sunup to sundown, often away from the village. I doubt if many fully-occupied men in a village setting have much time for mischief if they are truly engaged in executing their roles within the group – they would be too darned tired!

      This tradition of men working in groups away from their village is still in place today in parts of southern Africa: but, in Modernity, the young men leave the village for extended periods to work in the cities, sending their pay home to their families while the women run the village, raise the children and grow their food. It’s a broken model of Modernity that has done a lot to destroy the family values that used to hold the communities together since the young men working in the cities are out from under the guidance of their Elders of both sexes and thus have no moderating structure that keeps their generational blind spots in check. Many form new, unofficial ‘families’ in the cities, which slowly erodes the security and solidity of their home communities. When I was living there, this was often discussed as the curse of the white man, i.e. the breaking up of families for the earning of money. Sound familiar?

      The role of everyone is important in a village: men, women and children. When a village is living, working and evolving together on a daily basis, it prospers; when there are major divisions for long periods of time, the model falls slowly to pieces and destroys the very essence of a community. If you want to destroy the bond between people, separate the men from the women and both from the children for an extended time. A village will not long survive such a thing.

      There are many other areas we could explore regarding traditional indigenous village/community roles for males – but this is at least a starting point. Please jump in if you have input to add to the discussion. My ‘insights’ are based on my own experiences; yours may be different and you are welcome to share them here.

      LionLady

      • #9147
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        Hi LL:

        I know you said you were going off line for awhile and I wanted you to know that I have read this wonderful post several times and am working on a reply and some more questions. You’ve tickled some really important neurons of mine in this post of yours.

        OtB

        • #9273
          LionLadyLionLady
          Participant

          Hi, OtB:

          Thank you for all the support/understanding you’ve provided for me for the past few weeks – plus NOT dropping your pithy questions in a pile around my paws; it’s been a bit of a major juggle of demands/responsibilities here in the middle of nowhere, but it’s starting to settle down – so, after I return from the land of the computerless, do drop ’em all right here at my feet. I’ll pick them up and run with them as soon as I can.

          L/L

      • #9156
        ZenscreamerZenscreamer
        Participant

        I realize you’re AFK for a bit, but I just thought about this quote of yours with a minor modification:

        If you want to destroy the bond between people, separate the men from the women and both from the children for an extended time. A village [clan/society/tribe] will not long survive such a thing.

        This is essentially what happens when a village is invade by occupying forces; the men are enrolled in training (concentration) camp, the children are put in school (re-education camp) and the women are left at home with the elderly to take care of, and no one to help them. Rewind the tape a few centuries and the names change with the dates, and sometimes the locations change, but not always.

        Late in my study of anthropology (about the time I left the discipline in disgust) I resolved in my mind the principle that in general, in distressed circumstances (drought, pestilence, war) societies will eventually develop a male-dominated structure that emphasizes militarism, while in relatively benign circumstances the females rules and her ideas are prominent in a more balanced culture of mutual respect. In retrospect, I had it backwards. A society that is supports Her and Her Agenda would show itself in the value placed on maternal roles & norms and respect for the Environment and of the mother-child relationship, and would also so adapt to the Environment She was providing in a circuit of mutual respect and admiration, and so a nurturing relationship is sustained that keeps the Environment healthy and abundant; the other reliable way to acquire a healthy Environment is to take it from another society (such as by violence), but frequently the Environment is heavily damaged in the taking, more or less defeating the point. It’s the same distinction, but with opposite causality.

        • #9274
          LionLadyLionLady
          Participant

          Howdy, ZenS:

          What an interesting insight regarding patriarchal vs. matriarchal as a group model. I so enjoy your contributions, m’am! They are real thought-provokers. Please do bring more to this discussion. We need all the wisdom we can gather together on this one.

          In my experience, conflict over resources (gee, how interesting since that seems to be the driving force going on right now on the planet, but for all the wrong reasons!) is where the spit hits the fan, even in small groups. Maintaining a specific group size means a workable dependency on renewable resources; but when something changes that balance (ownership, higher birth rates, drought or flooding, power struggles, etc.) then the push for ‘more’ of anything starts the process of conflict. Some societies do it ritually; others turn need into conquest for a variety of goals, most of which have nothing at all to do with survival of their own particular group or respect for resources and maintaining them so that they perpetuate.

          We seem to have a real C/D aspect to life now: our consumption-based society is fueled by the idea of endless availability while our wars are driven by decreasing and finite access to goodies. What’s a modern to do? Well, that’s exactly why it’s going to be pretty damned important very soon to start remembering who we really are, how we got this way – and that we’d better come up very soon with a way to walk away from this mess and regroup – literally.

          Women have a huge stake in finding a way out of here that allows us to make absolutely sure that there are viable survivors of the coming challenges we will ALL be facing before too long. Men in general (I know this sounds like a blanket statement, but because we are dominated these days by patriarchal social structures, it’s unfortunately accurate) seem to have conveniently forgotten the future for the sake of accumulation in the present – and women, over the past few decades, have been seduced – ON PURPOSE – into taking on male roles and competing with men on their territory rather than on ours, and thus slowly losing ground on all fronts and being sucked into the same dead-end mind-set.

          Yes, yes – I know there are MANY men – and women – who do NOT fit this ‘one-size-condemns-all’ statement; but we’re too far down the slippery slope for me to be nicely PC about this and walk away from it: we need W-O-M-A-N back in the mix, and damned fast! in my opinion. When I say this, I’m NOT thinking ‘Are we ready for Hillary?’ That is NOT the kind of ‘woman’ I have in mind, kids! I’m talking nurturer/multi-tasker/mom-of-all-spades/lover/helpmate/the soft touch person, the one now almost lost in the shuffle of making ends meet around husband/job/kids/personal responsibilities on a fast-shrinking financial rope. Gads, women! We gots our day-to-day job cut out for us right now – but the future is WAY more important than perpetuating the soul-killing bottle-juggling we’re all doing right now!

          I’m not wanting to tie aprons back around every woman’s waist and toss a pot and a toddler at her – BUT – it is important to remember how we are actually wired up and what we do best – because we are ALL gonna have to take on designated roles again, ones we may not want to take on (or give up) – because our very survival may depend on getting off of our positions and being willing to do gender-specific skut-work we’ve disdained for ages, in order to even survive.

          Gentle reader: please just think about this; it’s going to become an issue in the near future. And we’d all best be ready for THAT discussion.

          I look forward to your continuing input, ZenS – it’s always thoughtful and pithy and challenging.

          :) L/L

      • #9168
        On the BeachOn the Beach
        Participant

        Hi @LionLady:

        I’ve been thinking hard about your community post now for 2 days. I keep thinking one thing and trying to question this one concept because it seems too simple to be true. But I can’t: it keeps coming back to me as one of the most important issues in proper community building. Perhaps not the most important, I think that might be spiritual, but after the spiritual issue, this might be the most important:

        Mentoring.

        Not training, not education, not schooling, not apprenticeship, but the deeply personal connections created between generations by the proper use of mentoring. This act will create more long term cohesion in the community than anything else I can think of, maybe even blood bonds.

        What a great post LionLady. Thank you so much, and I too look for more.

        OtB

        • #9275
          LionLadyLionLady
          Participant

          Hi, OtB:

          :) Glad you twigged to THAT one! Yep – mentoring is a major key to the whole shebang working well and continuing on over many generations. However, mentoring is itself based on something even more essential: mutual responsibility to and for everyone else in the group. Mentoring is simply an expression of that sense of responsibility, passed down and into the future so that it continues as a skill-set, awareness, and ability. The cohesiveness you touch on is REALLY manifested via personal responsibility to and for one another – nothing else comes close. We have to CARE about each other – really care. And we seem to have forgotten how. I think that it will return in a rush, once we are down to it and in survival mode. We will either kill one another off grabbing for our own piece of the survival pie . . . or we will remember that it’s a LOT easier when we come together and, instead of fearing one another and forming a gang in order to remain viable, we instead re-learn the power and strength and cohesiveness of caring about and for one another. Once experienced, that is something no one will want to surrender for any reason. It nurtures and protects and fuels the strength of the group like nothing else. Knowing someone else is watching your back because they care is more powerful than any agreement or ‘deal’ or fear-based trade-off.

          Today, we are SO stuck on getting our sweet, instantly-gratified selves ahead of the crowds and competition that we seem to have completely forgotten about anyone else in our little world. We won’t survive long coming from that mind-set. An island is an island is an . . . island, i.e. a closed system with NO Exit door marked at all. Once damaged, it’s DONE. And, so are we if we don’t recall that ‘No (wo)man is an island.’ It’s a VERY important concept to remember right now.

          We all truly do need each other! Being an individual is fine, up to a point – except when it isolates us from the support, help and connections we are soon going to desperately need and are actually wired up for – but have abandoned in the increasing need to simply find some breathing space from the mad press of ‘making it’ in today’s competitive world. Anybody wedded to their smartphone, texting away while driving in the flood of big-city commuter traffic is the perfect picture of a lethally-disassociated and at-risk human. Yes – due to the pressures on us in today’s crazy world, we all crave alone-time and separateness . . . but we’ve thrown the survival-glue out with the crowding we so want to escape.

          It’s a DANCE, people! A dance between being separate and being together, one that never stops ebbing and flowing with each other. We cannot get along without both of these aspects in the mix of being a human. When we throw one out in favor of the other, we are crippling our ability to make it, either together or alone. THAT is the personal responsibility aspect that really keeps a village/community together – something I hope to have a good, long conversation about in the near future.

          Hugs, OtB – I know we have miles to go before we ‘sleep’ on this subject . . .
          :) L/L

    • #9143
      LionLadyLionLady
      Participant

      ANNOUNCEMENT from the Lion’s Den:

      I will be out of pocket here for two days – my computer simply MUST have an OS upgrade and I am having Wi-Fi/Satellite issues – so off to the tech it all goes, for two days of tinkering. I will be both blissfully – and frustratingly! – away from internet access of any kind until these critters are beaten into submission and made to make beautiful music together.

      Back as soon as it’s possible; in the meantime, I’ll be thinking about y’all and ticked off totally that I’m missing all the goodies goin’ on here.

      Please hold my chair, okay? I’ll be Baaaaaaaaack!
      L/L

    • #9230
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Hey OtB;  Thanks for your considered re-thinking of a prime requisite of future communities – today you’re calling it spirituality and back up stream, on Aug 28th I was calling it magic. I think we may be starting to bump each other. Now I’m really eager for Lion Lady to come back and spend some time with this child, it could be starting to grow legs and need a mothers touch ;>).

      My reasoning for attaching myself to a seemingly esoteric or extreme concept is the extreme changes in the social environments and the headlong rushes into potential catastrophes that will have a huge impact on the psyches and memories of all participants and leave a wall of distrust about any forms of former societal living above survival. Free health and free energy ( maybe even free travel ) seem likely candidates for adhesion within a community. Those kinds of targets are already in some folks sights, right now, and they still appear to be magical, even if it truly is spiritual energy.

      I’m going out and look at a tree, I’m too old to keep on hugging ’em.

      Glynn

      • #9233
        AvatarMrs Cog
        Keymaster

        I’m going out and look at a tree, I’m too old to keep on hugging ‘em.

        Awww… just be the tree. :-)

        jaguar-sleeping-tree_tn2

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      • #9276
        LionLadyLionLady
        Participant

        Hi, Glynn:

        Weeeell . . . as you can see, the big, furry critter is BAAAAACK. :) Not sitting in any trees, though! Too much to catch up on! ‘Ol Spot there, can keep on snoozin’; this Lion is makin’ TRACKS! LOL!

        Yep – we’s bumping up against one another here on this one: magic dissolving into spirituality expanding into creative intention, etc. etc. etc. We’re on a ROLL, heah! LOL! You can see from the added comments in this thread today that there’s LEGS all ovah the place right now . . . the Mom’s touch ‘n all that . . . :) :)

        I’d LOVE to hear more about the kinds of community ‘glue’ you’ve sussed up of late – that is also a very interesting conversation for the future: themed villages, i.e. skill-centers connected to other skill-centers or service-providers or supply/resource suppliers, etc., all helping/supporting one another.

        I have a friend, Penny Kelly, whose fantastic book “Robes” includes exactly this model. Penny is one of the visionaries I’ve had private conversations with about what’s coming and what is far, far down the road for humans once all of this nutty stuff is behind us. She’s been spot-on about a heap of things, down to amazing details and timing, and is one of my most important go-to ladies, ever, for the real goods. Her book is available as an e-book, but well worth buying as a keeper reference book for your own personal library. What happened to her and what was given to her to do/tell is all real, true and on the money. It dovetails exactly with what I was shown, but in MUCH greater, more traceable detail. Do check out her work – she is very quietly tapped by a LOT of major think-tanks and futurists who hire her services, but strictly behind-the-scenes because you know, of course, working with ‘psychic ladies’ makes one a laughing stock. Right. :)

        Glynn, believe me – we’ll be talking about purpose-focused interlinked village/extended community structure in the near future. It’s part and parcel of where we’ll all be going, further down this winding and rocky road.

        :) L/L

    • #9237
      GlynnGlynn
      Participant

      Awwww  Mrs Cog, you’re tooo much:   Yet another smile producer…thank you. On an almost serious note, I did have a flash today of feeling as being the tree when a wind came up and they all started such a beautiful swaying. I swayed with them in the initial instant. Well, itza’ start, what can I say ;>)? I am living in a Pacific temperate rain forest region and the trees here grow tall and unbelievably thin as they rush all together upward thinking that there may be a sun up there – seldom tho’. I’m talking a 30 foot tree that will be about an inch in diameter all the way up, maybe an inch and a half at the base and be a really hard wood, like a mahogany wood. The creek bottom thicket that I live in is a mix of lotsa different sizes  and different types of trees but these grow so fast and so thickly bunched together and interwoven with vines that with wind it produces such a wonderful subtle movement amongst them.

      Always love your sharing, thank you,

      Glynn

    • #9277
      LionLadyLionLady
      Participant

      All Right, Troops:

      This time, I really AM ‘Outtah heah’ for a few days. The earlier attempt to get the unwilling-to-integrate tech toys that make my presence here possible to play nicely with each other, didn’t happen due to the VERY unexpected release (at least, to ME) of the new iPhone 6 last Friday – necessitating a quick change of plans. No line-standing for this old lion . . . so we decided to wait until all the hoop-la died down and go in tomorrow, instead. So – I will be ‘out of pocket’ probably until the weekend, provided the tech at the store can MAKE these un-cooperative ‘lil cubs start to behave with each other.

      Sorry ’bout that; I was just getting into my stride, here – but time and tech wait for no Lion, so off I go to beat some sense into these %*##%! things. See you around the baobab tree in a bit . . .

      :) LionLady

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